Smith & Wesson Model 41: Is this worth it?

[GunsOverGolf]

With handguns it isn't the most accurate gun that shoots the best, but the one that YOU shoot best.

Entirely agree... It's a cruel reality though, and an expensive one. I would try pistols like I try shoes, if that were possible.

Shooter is the weakest link.

Yup. And a Ruger is probably more than enough for my abilities but as someone else in this thread mentioned, I'm also going for the "smile factor". I think the funner the gun, the more you'll want to shoot it and the better you will shoot it.

I have both the 41 and a Beretta 89 ... I shoot my 89 better than my 41

Did weight play a role in your case? How much does a Beretta 89 weigh?

 

[BCP]

I have both the 41 and a Beretta 89 (similar but much higher quality than the 87)

The Beretta is not "the next notch down". It is often more accurate than the 41. I shoot my 89 better than my 41, so in my case, the 41 is a notch down. Accuracy? the 89 without question is the more accurate gun. However the guns have different "feels". The 41 has the feel of a "target" gun, where the 89 has more the character of an "action" pistol.

With handguns it isn't the most accurate gun that shoots the best, but the one that YOU shoot best. A 41 or 89 is actually more accurate than a Walther GSP or similar, but because of ergonomic factors, trigger, grip, balance, sights, etc, the GSP will shoot better scores almost all the time.

Shooter is the weakest link. G'by

A 41 or 89 more accurate than a GSP? Here's a typical test target I found online for a GSP h ttp://photos.joesalter.com/12454/12454-04.jpg. That's 5 shots at 25m with the previous (no longer manufacturer) .22LR model. As for ergonomics, that can easily be changed with aftermarket parts. Top competitive shooters will use whatever helps to maintain their edge. Finding a better gun is an obsession for them. If the 89 was the most accurate and reliable gun there would be instant demand for match triggers, add on weights, target sights, and ergonomic grips for it. The demand would drive the aftermarket parts. Yes the shooter is the weakest link, but having the proven most accurate gun gives the shooter confidence. This is why they still seek it, even though a GSP can hold the X ring all day.

Entirely agree... It's a cruel reality though, and an expensive one. I would try pistols like I try shoes, if that were possible.

Yup. And a Ruger is probably more than enough for my abilities but as someone else in this thread mentioned, I'm also going for the "smile factor". I think the funner the gun, the more you'll want to shoot it and the better you will shoot it.

Did weight play a role in your case? How much does a Beretta 89 weigh?

According to Beretta 1.16Kg for the GS model. w ww.berettaweb.com/Beretta%2080/Beretta%2089%20GS.htm. The next time you see a target pistol at the range that you're interested in, ask the shooter questions about their gun. Chances are you'll get to try it.

 

[SandRoad]

A 41 or 89 more accurate than a GSP? Here's a typical test target I found online for a GSP h ttp://photos.joesalter.com/12454/12454-04.jpg. That's 5 shots at 25m with the previous (no longer manufacturer) .22LR model. As for ergonomics, that can easily be changed with aftermarket parts. Top competitive shooters will use whatever helps to maintain their edge. Finding a better gun is an obsession for them. If the 89 was the most accurate and reliable gun there would be instant demand for match triggers, add on weights, target sights, and ergonomic grips for it. The demand would drive the aftermarket parts. Yes the shooter is the weakest link, but having the proven most accurate gun gives the shooter confidence. This is why they still seek it, even though a GSP can hold the X ring all day.

Generally the accuracy of 41, 89, GSP are similar, dependant on ammo, so no big advantage. If anything, the 41 and 89 when tuned are better than the GSP.

Triggers? ISSF requires 1000g trigger weight (2.2 lbs) so no advantage going to a super light trigger, as it is not allowed. GSP has the advantage, as it's trigger is VERY adjustable to the hand/finger.

The 41 was used in the Olympics, before guns like the GSP were common. However the majority of people shot the ergonometric guns much better. In addition, the adjustablility of GSP and similar make all the difference. You can adjust it in the field, instead of having a gunsmith make adjustments.

Triggers/accessories are available for the 41 and 89, but again, the slight advantage, if any, of a more accurate gun, doesn't outweigh the huge advantage of ergonomics. GSP also has a longer sight radius, and the sights are positioned very close to the axis of the barrel, as is your hand.

Neither the 41 or 89 feel as "comfortable" in your hand as a GSP or similar.

Absolute accuracy is just a small part of putting bullets into the X, when you are shooting offhand, and rapid fire, at 25m.

I have test results somewhere comparing the 41 and 89, and will post if I can find them.

 

[BCP]

Generally the accuracy of 41, 89, GSP are similar, dependant on ammo, so no big advantage. If anything, the 41 and 89 when tuned are better than the GSP.

Triggers? ISSF requires 1000g trigger weight (2.2 lbs) so no advantage going to a super light trigger, as it is not allowed. GSP has the advantage, as it's trigger is VERY adjustable to the hand/finger.

The 41 was used in the Olympics, before guns like the GSP were common. However the majority of people shot the ergonometric guns much better. In addition, the adjustablility of GSP and similar make all the difference. You can adjust it in the field, instead of having a gunsmith make adjustments.

Triggers/accessories are available for the 41 and 89, but again, the slight advantage, if any, of a more accurate gun, doesn't outweigh the huge advantage of ergonomics. GSP also has a longer sight radius, and the sights are positioned very close to the axis of the barrel, as is your hand.

Neither the 41 or 89 feel as "comfortable" in your hand as a GSP or similar.

Absolute accuracy is just a small part of putting bullets into the X, when you are shooting offhand, and rapid fire, at 25m.

I have test results somewhere comparing the 41 and 89, and will post if I can find them.

From your previous post "Accuracy? the 89 without question is the more accurate gun." I got the impression the 89 was much more accurate. I'm very interested to see the test results.

Trigger weight is overrated. Crisp trigger break is more important. A good trigger job and an adjustable trigger shoe would nullify most of the GSP's advantage. Sight radius is limited to 220mm in 25m shooting. A short sight extender would put the 89 on equal grounds. The bore line on the 89 looks mighty low from Beretta's website, and the sights can't be much higher than the GSP's. Aftermarket grips from Nill, Mornini, or Rink would make the 41 or 89 just as ergonomic. Other than grip and sights, there's very little adjustments made at a match. The only remaining concerns would be accuracy and reliability.

For the cost of a 87 or 89 and its reported accuracy, I would expect to see more of them at competitions. They would make a good starter gun for shooters on a budget and more accustom to "action" pistols. Upgrades could then come later on as the shooter gets better. I've seen a couple 41s around, but no Berettas.

 

[SandRoad]

The Berettas are uncommon. They were an expensive pistol, more than a 41, and that limited their popularity. The 87T is actually Berettas attempt to make a much cheaper 89. The 89 had a lot of intricate machining. A recommended upgrade for the 87 is to install a 89 trigger.

As for accuracy, my comparison was actually based on a tweaked 41 and to a lessor extent the 89, compared to a GSP.

The 89 is a bit more front heavy than a 41, compare how much of the action is behind the grip. So arguably, the 41 "should" make a better target gun. But again, it depends on what a person shoots best. I shoot better with the Beretta than the 41, and do better yet with a GSP (don't own one but have shot one)

The Beretta is also better if you want to use a two handed grip, "Action pistol" rather than a one handed bullseye grip.

Another one to throw into the mix is a High Standard Victor.

 

[stubblejumper]

Hopefully, you will be able to find a new model 41 in Canada. The US distributor sent the wrong gun to my dealer, so unless I wanted to wait for another one to clear two sets of customs, I had to find one elsewhere. It took a bit of searching to find a Canadian dealer with one in stock, but this morning a model 41 was located in B.C., and purchased. The dealer waited for eight months to get this one, and it was the only new model 41 that we could find in Canada, other than a 50th anniversary model priced at over $2400.