SMLE butt stock markings

[Nabs]

Hello all,

I recently picked up a beautiful SMLE sporter, BSA 1940 SMLE III, for hunting and long distance shooting once I find an appropriate mount and scope. I am fortunate as a previous owner has already drilled and tapped the rifle for a scope mount.

The wood has been re-finished but the markings on the butt stock are still somewhat visible.

Above the filled in disc spot, there is what I think is a rack number, "139", and immediately to the right is a marking I am not familiar with identifying right off the bat. It is as follows:

C C
-> <-
/\
|

My quick search on the Lee Enfield website came up with a possible match with a "Cadet Corps" marking with the broad arrows indicating the rifle being sold out of British military service. Am I right on this ?

If it is a Cadet Corps, any way to tell which Cadet unit it was attached to ? Any way to tell if this is wartime or post war marking ?

I have included two pictures to help with identification.

Thank you for the assistance.

 

[55recce]

The 2 arrows facing each other are sold out of service marks to indicate that it was leitimately disposed of by the military to the civilian market

 

[Nabs]

Thanks for confirming that portion of the marking. Is the arrow in between the two opposing ones part of the "Sold out of service" marking ?

Anyone have thoughts on the "C C" stamp ? I had a look earlier today and someone on another forum reported that the Cadet corp number was stamped nearby, could it be the "139" in my case ?

 

[smellie]

I have been banging my head over this one and have got nowhere, Nabs. The "CC" is a cadet corps, yes, but it supposed to be a COUNTY Cadet corps: one C for 'county', one for 'cadet' and they forgot the poor 'corps' completely. And I have no way to know which one.

There WAS a mark consisting of an "I" below a Broad Arrow, indicating Indian Government stores, but India is still using these critters, so that doesn't make much sense.

BTW, your rifl is from a VERY historic time, when only Monty's Division and ONE Candiain division represented the entire British combat-available force and there were hundreds of thousands of men swanning about with no rifles, due to the Dunkirk mess. Your rifle was built at the old BSA plant at Small Heath, Brmingham, before it was bombed by the Nasties and before the Dispersal program was started. At that time BSA epresented the ONLY working rifle factory in the British Isles, Enfield having torn down much of the SMLE equipment and not yet ready to build the Number 4.... besides being utterly swamped with all the other work a pennypinching Government had thrown at them through the 1920s and 1930s. In modern parlance, it was a complete goat-f*ck and, in the end, it was BSA which actually SAVED Britain, almost as much as the RAF and the US support which came later in such abundance. Absolute DESPERATION... and BSA calmly cranking out the rifles which the Government had spent 20 years telling them they didn't want.
Post-war, BSA had some good years in the motorcyle business until government restrictions and cheap Jap knockoffs and merciless cutthroat competition put them down, the public not knowing the difference between a FAST motorcycle and a GOOD motorcycle. They needed a million quid for one year and the Socialist Government told them to go away: their thanks for saving the country. Then more government interference and the gun business went down. The Small Heath plant where your rifle was made should have been declared a National Historic Site. Instead, it was demolished in 1989.

You might want to scoot on over to milsurps dot com, Badger's site. There are manuals there for download (FREE!!!!!) and the former senior Armourer from the British Army is a member, also at least two other Armourers who deal with these on a daily bsis. They'll sort you out if anyone can.

BTW, S&K makes a "semi-no-gunsmithing" mount for this rifle which is very solid. That silly top rail that most rifles are drilled for in this country is near impossible to use if the rifle gets a knock. The S&K is expensive but it is solid.

Hope this is a little help. I did write you back at length, later checked my outbox and could not find it. Think the machine ate it..... again.

Nice chunk of REAL history you have there.

Have fun!
.

 

[smellie]

Just thinking, Nabs (I do that from time to time but most people would never know!). You might want to trot on down to a fun shop or one of those dollar stores and pick up a "black light" bulb.These throw a huge amount of UV. They are quite the choice of home-grow marijuana farmers but they also can be used to show up old markings in wood which has been sanded: the lower layers of wood compress from the stamps and show up under UV light where they do not show up under full-spectrum. Quite a few guys are trying these... and they work. Cheap, too: mine was 99 cents plus taxes. If you know a serious stamp cllector, he is liable to have one: they also show up repairs to old paper and forgeries very well, not to mention the phosphor tagging which has been on our stamps since the late 1950s.

Hope this helps.
.

 

[chofo]

Smellie...is there anything you DON'T know about?? LOL !!

Never thought of the UV light to look for stock markings... makes perfect sense too.

Now, somewhere I have a little hand-held unit for checking phosphour tagging , bought it way back when I was into stamps as well.

My 1903A3 and my Trapdoor were both well sanded down by the previous owners... hell-bent on "improving" them apparently.

No cartouches seen at all with the nekkid eye, but now...who knows?

Thanks for the tip!

(Reminds me of an article way back in the 70's ... American Rifleman ... they used some weirdo neutron-beam x-ray to read the ground off serial numbers from Mafia guns... the particulars escape me now. You can blame the Craft disease.)

 

[buffdog]

Smellie...is there anything you DON'T know about?? LOL !!

NEVER BET ABOUT HISTORICAL FACTS WITH SMELLIE. YOU WILL LOSE!

George Majored in History, and his Thesis was on "Small Arms from 1812 to the Second Ypres," a classis that is still quoted today. He was a Newspaper Editor, a long range target shooter, and friend of a five time Canadian Bisley team member.

He is one of the few people I know who actually has been in the Enfield Pattern Room. While there, he made some suggestions on how to simply make the current issue British Military Rifle useable for left handed shooters and operation. Also, while there, from his notes that he took with him, he WROTE the Manual for the (I think) 1888 Maxim Machine Gun and gave it to them.

He also doesn't make a bad cup of Coffee!

Now, back to your rifle butt stock markings. With regard to the "C ---C", it almost looks like these two letters are too far apart, and there should be more letters in between them. When I first saw it, I was thinking "COTC" or Canadian Officers Training Corps. Cadet Corps rifles usually are marked with a right pointing horizontal arrow, the letters C C and a left pointing arrow at the right. Sort of like -> CC <-

 

[Nabs]

Thank you for your thoughts everyone! George, I thought that is what happened to my PM as I am sure you would have responded, no worries though, as I am very glad you posted your thoughts on this thread.

I will have to give the black bulb a try, perhaps these markings will come up a bit clearer ? I checked out the rest of the stock and there are no other markings to be found.

I'm really happy with this rifle overall. Besides the fact that someone went through the serious business of bedding the rifle in the stock and made it look extremely professional, the rifle still retains many of her III attributes that are not present on my III *. For example, the cut off slot is still present on this rifle and I am working on getting a cut off plate and screw to complete the look. I am also very interested in trying it out as well and comparing it to my III *. The two rings for the trigger guard sling swivel are in place as well compared to only the one on my *.

Another marking that I haven't seen before is on the barrel, behind the rear sight base. It is:

SC
HV

My search on google and on the Lee Enfield website showed these markings to stand for "Short Cone High Velocity". I think this means the barrel was proofed for the MK VII ammunition and the chamber has not been reamed out for the "mud of flanders" modification if I am correct. Am I correct on this one ?

I have included some more photos of her features in-case I missed something or I am wrong about what something is.

Might as well ask, do you guys think this rifle was one of those rifles offered in a those 1960s magazine ads ? She certainly fits the part and looks to be professionally turned into a sporter.

I also included a picture of the scope mount drill holes, anyone recognise the pattern and what mount they may be used for ? I am going to take the SMLE to my gun smith and try some different mounts and scopes but I wouldn't mind knowing the style of mount that may work.

There is also a repair that was done to the butt stock, it looks similar to a repair on my III * that is still in military configuration. Do you guys think this was done by military ? What type of damage or use would cause that part of the butt stock to require the application of a spliced piece of wood as it just boggles my mind. The brass plate also looks gorgeous on this rifle as the one on my * appears to be the original one to the rifle and is beat up a bit on the exterior.

Thank you for the help everyone.

 

[smellie]

Repair right at the heel of the butt: the world-famous Parade Ground Repair, occasioned by some klutz actually slamming the rifle onto the asphalt. You were supposed to lower it quickly and smartly but you were NOT actually to Bang it on the parade square. Somebody got five days' on defaulters' for that one!

Yes, your rifle is VERY early for WW2. The action, I am pretty sure, was started in 1938 and only finished in 1940. It would have been started for the Iraqi contract rifles, which were built in 1936 and 1938 and were actual Mark III rifles and made as such. In British Service, they had gone to the Mark III* in 1916.

Your interpetations of the stamps behind the rearsight base are correct.

BTW, Trade-Ex HAS cutoffs, but no screws. Ten bucks, packed in grease, as old as Methusaleh and perfect as the day they were made. I just got 2 and will be sending for a few more: pension day is only 2 days off, so send for one before I get 'em ALL! (I have no idea how many Anthony has, but I'm pretty certain it's more than the 2 I will be able to afford!) As to affixing the critter, you CAN get away with a loop of iron wire, crimped into place, just to hold it in place; they are pretty solidly in all by themselves, just need a point to pivot around.

Yes, I remember rifles looking exactly like this one, right to the black-stained fore-end tip in the hardware store when I was a kid. Twenty-five bucks. The REALLY SPIFFY ones were about 45 dollars and they had real, actual white-line spacers and buttplates made of REAL PLASTIC! Then you went North of that and you got a completely-rebuilt P-17 by BSA and they were just glorious, came in about 4 models. I have their semi-custom version and it is truly a beautiful rifle. It would have been about a hundred bucks and the Weaver steel-tube K-4 scope would have been $30 MORE: a week's pay in the bakery, just for the scope!

Have fun.

You have a very real piece of History.
.

 

[John Sukey]

Buffdog, add one more to the people you know who have been to the pattern room. I have been there TWICE!

Also met Edna Parker, "It's a hard business and I'm only a woman" She could have scared the pants off Sadam!

 

[Nabs]

Thank again for the information, George. Who knew this sporter could tell you so much about her past ? All this time I thought she was "just another SMLE" but I was wrong on that one.

I agree that the action may have been made earlier than the date stamped. The "40" does not align with the "19", is slightly above in terms of being on the same line, and appears to be newly stamped when compared to the "19". Can't forget about the gap between the numbers too.

You mentioned scope mounts and how they were present on some of the higher end sporters being offered, do the holes on mine look like they would have conformed to those style of mounts ? I am just trying to figure out which mount would fit so when I go to my gun smith, I will have an idea what mounts and scopes to focus on instead of guessing.

Last but not least, any idea what type of sling would fit best on this ? Did those sporters in the hardware stores have slings on them or sold beside them separately ? The front sling swivel is too small for a normal SMLE sling.

Thanks again!