I know people always say never do this, but why? I would guess due to pressures, but then i dont know what pressures a muzzleloader is getting when using 150 grains of 777. Any ideas nd warnings would be appreciated. also any ever actually try it?>
smokeless in a muzzleloader???
- Thread starter bruno
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BECAUSE YOU COULD DIE OR KILL SOMEBODY ELSE and wreck a pefectly good gun!!!!!!!
Smokeless powder generates a hell of a lot more pressue and burns at a differant rate than black powder. Smokeless powder is a propelant, back powder is an explosive material. The steel in older and newer muzzle loaders(with only one exception that I am aware of) are not designed or made to handle that type of pressure curve.
Powder manufactures publish loading and data material regarding pressure levels of a given weight of powder. Always consult the manufacture recomeded powder charges before loading your muzzle loader. Start with the minimum level and don't exceed the manufacture recommended maximum charge for that make of powder.
Read the data stamp on your barrel, it there for a reason. Your safety! If it states black powder only, then please only use what is specified by the manufacture.
I don't mean to sound so stern with you, but I don't want you to get injured or worse.
Smokeless powder generates a hell of a lot more pressue and burns at a differant rate than black powder. Smokeless powder is a propelant, back powder is an explosive material. The steel in older and newer muzzle loaders(with only one exception that I am aware of) are not designed or made to handle that type of pressure curve.
Powder manufactures publish loading and data material regarding pressure levels of a given weight of powder. Always consult the manufacture recomeded powder charges before loading your muzzle loader. Start with the minimum level and don't exceed the manufacture recommended maximum charge for that make of powder.
Read the data stamp on your barrel, it there for a reason. Your safety! If it states black powder only, then please only use what is specified by the manufacture.
I don't mean to sound so stern with you, but I don't want you to get injured or worse.
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didn't really want to do it, more looking for info on reasons why not to, and whether or not the guns could handle it. also if a gun could be designed to use smokeless and be loaded like a muzzleloader, what kind of velocities and pressures could be achieved and be safe???
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Here's one, The fire & smoke , shoot BP , Gotta have fire & smoke 
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bruno said:
Savage is the only one I've heard of. As far as velocities & pressure, I would suggest check out the Savage website for more info. This a newer product on the market and I have not seen one yet. They make very accurate products and with very reasonable prices
I was under the impression that the Ruger single action pistols were safe as well. Don't know, just under the impression. I have a vague memory from times gone by of old Bill Ruger stateing that they used the same metal in their black powder handguns as in their smokeless powder handguns, only because it was cost efficient though. bearhunter
bruno said:
You cant do it for the same reason you cant look at a smokeless burn rate chart and say oh that powder is only 2/3 as far up the heat wave as another I load for so if I put in 2/3 as much I'll be fine. Its not necessarilly the overal pressure you should be concerned with but the pressure curve. I'll put it to ya this way,theres been many savage smokeless ML barrels rung and their meant for it. Where would that leave you if holding a barrel proofed far below
The Savage is the only current muzzleloader for which the manufacuturer recommends the use of smokeless powder. As far as modern firearms are concerned, there is no reason that they could not be made to be used with smokless. Consider a 12ga. shotgun, or .45-70 rifle. The pressure levels could be similar, no matter whether the charge is loaded from the breech or the muzzle. The strength of the firearm could be adequate either way. The problem is than black powder is more forgiving, in the event of an overload. It can be difficult to damage a ml barrel using overloads of black powder. If smokeless is overloaded, or the wrong variety used, pressures can go through the roof, and the firearm can be burst. There are many more varianbles in muzzleloading a firearm than in breechloading one. Different steel alloys are used in modern gun barrels, depending on intended use. Everything from leaded screw machine steel (12L14, etc., machines beautifully, tends to brittleness) through 1137 for shotguns, lower pressure centrefire rifles, 4140 CrMo and 416R for high power rifle barrels. The leaded steel has been used in modern ml barrels, as well as .22rf. It would be a very poor choice indeed for high pressure smokeless use.
Antique ml guns used welded iron barrels, or occasionally cast steel barrels drilled from solid. If intact, they are obviously adequate for the intended loads. Using anything else is foolhardy.
Antique ml guns used welded iron barrels, or occasionally cast steel barrels drilled from solid. If intact, they are obviously adequate for the intended loads. Using anything else is foolhardy.
Right now, there is only the one factory gun set up for smokeless, that's the Savage (that I know of.) and it's not without it's issues. For info on that, check out high performance muzzleloading . com, Toby Bridges runs the site, and he's pretty much the father of the modern muzzle loaders in terms of in- lines, etc. There are some customs out there as well, but don't recall them offhand. When you start playing in this arena, your margin for error gets real slim and simple mistakes get painfull qiuickly.
In terms of the Savage, have had the ML II since it first came out. They are accurate, hard hitting (on both ends!) and cleanup with smokeless is a breeze (aka: I hate cleaning guns!) BUT, you must follow the factory manual to the letter! If you don't believe this, check out the above mentioned site for some horror stories and pics, it can get wierd fast. I also realize the limitations of this gun and for that reason, check & inspect critical parts regularily for wear. I've also shot 777 & Pyrodex and can appreciate the virtues and drawbacks of each. No matter where you go there ain't no free lunch here.
For God's sake and the safety of those around you, don't mix & match black / black substitutes and smokeless, unless you have a burning desire to either see your widow enjoy your insurance money, or you have a real good disability plan. Go read what's on that website, and get an understanding of the forces you're playing with.
In terms of the Savage, have had the ML II since it first came out. They are accurate, hard hitting (on both ends!) and cleanup with smokeless is a breeze (aka: I hate cleaning guns!) BUT, you must follow the factory manual to the letter! If you don't believe this, check out the above mentioned site for some horror stories and pics, it can get wierd fast. I also realize the limitations of this gun and for that reason, check & inspect critical parts regularily for wear. I've also shot 777 & Pyrodex and can appreciate the virtues and drawbacks of each. No matter where you go there ain't no free lunch here.
For God's sake and the safety of those around you, don't mix & match black / black substitutes and smokeless, unless you have a burning desire to either see your widow enjoy your insurance money, or you have a real good disability plan. Go read what's on that website, and get an understanding of the forces you're playing with.
