Smokeless in black powder cartridges

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Those of you who reload black powder cartridges for your antique rifles and pistols may be interested in article written by Sherman Bell in the Double Gun Journal. In this article, he measured peak pressures for both black powder and some smokeless powders. I've summarized the most interesting aspects of his experiments at http://leverguns.sixgunner.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=16616&SearchTerms=smokeless

In general, smokeless powder 2400 gives approximately the same pressure curve as black powder for the same velocity. Smokeless powders slower than 2400 will actually give lower pressure curves than black powder for the same velocity. Bell indicates that the danger in using smokeless powder is really only the danger of an overcharge or double charge, provided slower smokeless powders are used (another cartridge historian, John Kort, has found that 2400 is the crossover point ... use only 2400 or slower.)

Personally, I have reloaded and shot both smokeless and black powder in my old Winchesters dating from 1882 and on, including the '76, '86, and '94. Based on my own experience, however, before reading Bell's article, I decided that I would no longer use black powder in valuable antique rifles for the following reason: if the barrel has any pitting in it at all, even very small pits, it is impossible to completely get all the black powder residue out of those pits, with the result that the pitting will slowly get larger over the decades. Secondly, with smokeless powder such as IMR 4198, I could get the same velocities as black powder but with lower peak pressure.

I never use smokeless powders faster than 2400 in an antique firearm, not even for light loads ... the pressure peak spikes too high to risk it.

One problem I have found with using slower smokeless powders in some of my old rifles (especially a .38-55 made in 1896) is that the rifle has an oversize bore (.381) and I can only chamber bullets up to .379 without inside reaming the cases. Black powder has a high enough pressure spike to 'bump' up the bullet to fill the groove diameter, but slower smokeless powders like IMR 4198 simply could not produce high enough pressure to do that at original velocities. I found, however, that if I used a faster powder, but still slower than 2400 (IMR SR4759 in this case), I could get enough pressure to 'bump' up the soft lead bullet to fill the groove diameter for decent groups at 200 yards with iron sights.

If 'bumping' up is not an issue because your bore is not oversize, then for some cartridges, you can experiment with slower and slower powders until you find one that gives you original black powder velocities with a powder that fills the case to capacity. I've done this for my .44 Russian and know of other fellows who've done this for their .38-55's and some other obsolete black powder cartridges. The down side of this is that you use more powder (more money) but on the other hand, at least with my .44 Russian, I get very clean and consistent burning.

Bottom Line: With the right smokeless powders, a fellow can achieve original black powder velocities at lower peak pressures than black powder generates, and without the corrosive residues getting into nooks and crannies and tiny pits.
 
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Very interesting stuff 38 55 :)

So when your useing that AA5744 you dont end up with lots of un burnt powder? I wanted to try it in the 45 long colt instead of pyrodex. And maby in the 450 and 455 case as well.
 
I don't think it should be construed that you can use any smokeless powder in a black powder cartridge as long as the velocity does not exceed black powder. Don't forget there are those unexplained detonations that destroy guns and usually found in magnum shells loaded with low charges of very slow burning smokeless powders.
As to the use of black in barrels with pits; I shoot original muzzle loaders with pitted barrels frequently and I can't say that they seem to be getting any worse. It does seem however the barrels need to be reoiled every several months however if they are not being shot. I think the protective oil inside the barrel migrates down or evaporates after several months.

cheers mooncoon
 
dingus said:
Very interesting stuff 38 55 :)

So when your useing that AA5744 you dont end up with lots of un burnt powder? I wanted to try it in the 45 long colt instead of pyrodex. And maby in the 450 and 455 case as well.

Dingus, I can only speak for my .44 Russian but, no, I only see from 0 to 3 individual grains of unburnt powder. How 5744 does in the 45 Colt may be a different matter.

Mooncoon, I have noticed extremely irregular burning with low density charges of IMR 3031 in my .45-90 '86. I found that one sheet of toilet paper loosely rolled up and folded twice completely filled the space between the bullet and the powder and substantially reduced the E.S. and S.D. The Bell article said that fillers were a fact of life with smokeless powders in large capacity cases. They used a cork wad, which I would NEVER use (I'd be afraid of ringing). Typically, however, if I am using a slow smokeless powder I either use toilet paper filler to keep the powder against the primer, or I use a powder that is slow enough that I'm either at capacity, close to it, or at least over 50% of capacity. I get nervous if the powder is less than 50%.

There are pro's and con's to either BP or slow smokeless. The pro of BP, apart from the fact that it is more fun to shoot, is that you never have to worry about an over charge (although an under charge can be dangerous if there is a gap between the powder and wad, and the base of the bullet). For smokeless the con is outlined above. All things considered, I prefer smokeless in my vintage guns and black powder in my modern reproductions with nice mirror smooth bores. I know some will say I've got it bass ackwards, but it is just my personal pref.
 
I have used AA XMP 5744 in my 38-55, it works great. 16 grains of it under a 245 grain cast gives about 1175 fps out of my 26 in. barrel. I did notice, what I thought was, unburnt powder. I was told, by a guy whose been using the stuff for a few years, that it wasn't unburnt powder, it was filler of some sort.KD
 
I use drier lint to keep the powder against the primer, when using smokeless in a black powder case. With no filler/wad I get extremely variable pressures and of course lousy accuracy. I use only a pinch that forms a wad a little over 1/8" thick after you push it down lightly with a dowel or similar. Keep in mind that any filler adds weight and were a person to use any significant weight of filler, it too has to be weighed to ensure uniformity.

cheers mooncoon
 
I like the dryer lint idea ... we have lots of that in this house. Basically, I like my filler to be very light and to fill the space between the bullet base and the powder just enough to keep the powder against the primer.

8ball, the closest I've come is smokeless in an vintage .45-90 I had. I used quite a few different smokeless powders. From my experience with the .45-90, and the more or less linear curve of IMR 4198 (see the link in my first post for a picture of the curve), if I were to load for the .45-120, I'd use IMR 4198 but I'd also use a filler, like one sheet of toilet paper. With a big case like that, you will get what both I and Mooncoon have experienced if you don't use a light filler ... variable pressures/velocities. Bell mentions the need for this as well in the big black powder cases ... check his article out.
 
8ball, I just checked Bell's article, and he did his experiments with a .450 x 3 and 1/4" cartridge which held 120 grains of FFg.
 
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