Smokeless in modern muzeloaders

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I know that a modern made 24ga muzzleloader was fired with loads obtained by breaking down modern 20ga cartridges.
I saw the groove cut in the bottom of the flashpan by the gas jet escaping from the touch hole.
The barrel was 1137 gun barrel grade steel. The breechplug was 1015, properly fitted.
I think that this was a particularly stupid stunt. I was pleased that the gun and shooter were unscathed.
In theory, a modern muzzleloader, made with appropriate materials, should be able to withstand the same pressures as a modern breechloader, the loads being within the same parameters.

Unless a manufacturer has engineered the thing to shoot smokeless, doing so would be extremely foolish. There are too many things over which the experimenter has no control.

For example, I mentioned a muzzleloader with a barrel made from 1137 steel. A lot of modern muzzleloading barrels are made with leaded screw machine steel. Machines beautifully, and fast. No way on earth would it be appropriate for a smokeless powder gun barrel apart from .22 RF.
Most smokeless powder rifle barrels use 4140, 4150 steel, 416R, etc. What is the muzzleloading barrel made from? Test firing it proves that it didn't blow up that one time. Doesn't prove that the thing is fit for use with smokeless.
 
Brutus said:
Use at your own risk. It's a bit different discharging a firecracker 32 or 38 rimfire at arm's length, hopefully in a converted cap and ball revolver with a lot of excess metal.

It's another thing altogether to risk lighting off what is quite probably a pipe bomb near your face. Using smokeless powder in a chamber designed for BP or BP substitute. Especially without the luxury of additional brass casing enclosing the propellant.
There are recent examples on the internet from hospital emergency rooms.
If you cannot understand that margin of error I don't know why we are discussing this anymore?
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The brass case is not going to provide you with any real protection. Use common sense and you should be good.
 
bush1 said:
. I want to here from people who have worked up safe loads in their ml,.
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over and above echoing Tiriaq, just how would you work up a safe load ? Might we assume you have a pressure sensor attached to the breach of your gun ? Also at what pressure are you going to define as maximum, assuming you know the kind of steel in your barrel and its strength limits

cheers mooncoon
 
tiriaq said:
I know that a modern made 24ga muzzleloader was fired with loads obtained by breaking down modern 20ga cartridges.
I saw the groove cut in the bottom of the flashpan by the gas jet escaping from the touch hole.
The barrel was 1137 gun barrel grade steel. The breechplug was 1015, properly fitted.
I think that this was a particularly stupid stunt. I was pleased that the gun and shooter were unscathed.
In theory, a modern muzzleloader, made with appropriate materials, should be able to withstand the same pressures as a modern breechloader, the loads being within the same parameters.

Unless a manufacturer has engineered the thing to shoot smokeless, doing so would be extremely foolish. There are too many things over which the experimenter has no control.

For example, I mentioned a muzzleloader with a barrel made from 1137 steel. A lot of modern muzzleloading barrels are made with leaded screw machine steel. Machines beautifully, and fast. No way on earth would it be appropriate for a smokeless powder gun barrel apart from .22 RF.
Most smokeless powder rifle barrels use 4140, 4150 steel, 416R, etc. What is the muzzleloading barrel made from? Test firing it proves that it didn't blow up that one time. Doesn't prove that the thing is fit for use with smokeless.
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Agreed.
But it seems the OP will likely give it ago anyhow because you know Free Speech and all.......:confused::confused::confused:....................................................:popCorn:
 
PatchRat said:
I'm looking forward to the results of the experiment, and im glad it won't be my face and fingers that pay the tab.
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Ya see, it's just funny how folks like you would do an experiment and not take precautions. If you read the sticky like I asked you to, you would have read the part where they said to use reduced load by x amount % of bp by volume.
 
mooncoon said:
over and above echoing Tiriaq, just how would you work up a safe load ? Might we assume you have a pressure sensor attached to the breach of your gun ? Also at what pressure are you going to define as maximum, assuming you know the kind of steel in your barrel and its strength limits

cheers mooncoon
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How in earth did you come up with the quote of mine that you posted?

You must have done some serious editing of a few posts to come up with that. I never said anything close to that…
 
Time and time again, same old story…. Ask for technical advice on a public forum, then when the well intended advice from numerous knowledgeable contributors doesn’t agree with the results you want to hear, why of course all that advice must be wrong because I’m obviously right. Followed as usual by a complete refusal to acknowledge that these well meaning helpful contributors actually might know what they’re talking about, so bad mouth them for their audacity to disagree with you. Sheesh.
 
bush1 said:
How in earth did you come up with the quote of mine that you posted?

You must have done some serious editing of a few posts to come up with that. I never said anything close to that…
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I stand corrected ---- it was Bigbore 35 in post #3 and you were quoting his post I apologize

cheers mooncoon
 
Ashcroft said:
Time and time again, same old story…. Ask for technical advice on a public forum, then when the well intended advice from numerous knowledgeable contributors doesn’t agree with the results you want to hear, why of course all that advice must be wrong because I’m obviously right. Followed as usual by a complete refusal to acknowledge that these well meaning helpful contributors actually might know what they’re talking about, so bad mouth them for their audacity to disagree with you. Sheesh.
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You are totally wrong, I am not bad mouthing anyone. I just wanted to here the other side of the story and no one is listening, just giving their opinions and not facts. The video of the guys from cv was totally fraudulent. It did not state the powder used and the amount. I was not looking for your advise, I was looking to those who have tested this these bp guns and have enough balls to chime in but I guess I am wasting my time.
 
Perhaps the information you seek is not available because very, very few people would attempt such a dangerous experiment. When a arms manufacturer states DO NOT USE SMOKELESS POWDER it's for your own safety and those around you. If you want to proceed do so at your own risk and by yourself.
 
Bigbore 35 said:
Y The video of the guys from cv was totally fraudulent. It did not state the powder used and the amount. I was not looking for your advise, I was looking to those who have tested this these bp guns and have enough balls to chime in but I guess .
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I think there is a big difference between what you are calling "testing" and what many of us understand by the term. In my opinion, testing begins with a knowledge of the strength of the material in the barrel and then using a piezo-electric cell to measure the pressure generated in an overly strong barrel and relating that to the various barrels commonly available. It also means doing that for each of the many smokeless powders available.
You seem to be defining testing on the basis of what smokeless powder did not blow your gun up and what sort of accuracy and velocity did it give. I would also point out that the pressure generated by smokeless powders increases exponentially beyond somewhere in the 40 to 50k psi range and if you are already operating near the top of the pressure limits of your barrel, a small increase could go sky high.

cheers mooncoon
 
tigrr said:
Video what ever you do for our future reference.
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Yep. Standard reply since the days of Usenet. "Do you have a video camera?" A video camera on a tripod will solve a lot of the problems of trying to figure out what happened, if you do manage to kill or maim yourself.

I would also suggest, among other things, get a decent set of portraits so your surgeon has something to work with when he puts your face back together, and go to the far end of the range line from anyone else, so as to not injure them too.
But hey, don't let fear or good judgement stop you from trying! I don't live in Sask any more, so I know you won't be next to me doing stupid stuff. I consider myself Libertarian enough minded as to not be too worried how you maim yoursself, so long asyou take measures to not include others in it!
You are old enough that your mom doesn't have to drop you off at the range, yeah?

Point in fact, you had to ask. Not liking the answer, isn't the same as the answer being wrong. It's not a 'free speech' thing, either, else you would not have been allowed to yammer on about how hard done by you are, because you were given intelligent advice.

Your Shockey Sticks, are also, like Triple 7, NOT smokeless powder. They are a Black Powder Substitute, formulated to not exceed Black Powder pressures when used properly.

Savage, and a couple others, made Muzzle Loaders that were built for and designed for, Smokeless Powder. And enough of them got blown up, they decided it wasn't a good corporate risk. There are a few guys that are still using them successfully. They are the ones smart enough to read the instructions and follow them carefully, rather than deciding they knew better.

So, now you have been told repeatedly, why there isn't an "article" describing the safe use of Smokeless Powder in BP muzzle loaders. Because it isn't safe. They don't write "Use Black Powder Only" on the barrels as a plot to piss you off, they do it to keep their corporate Lawyers happy, so they can tell you to go pound sand when you try to sue them, after you did something stupid.
 
Alright, I'll chime in on this one, as one of the guys who runs a dedicated smokeless muzzleloader-

When weighed and properly used in such a way that it does not exceed the pressure of a max load of blackpowder, smokeless would be perfectly safe in any muzzleloader. Understand that pressure is pressure regardless of whether its generated by smokeless or blackpowder, and as long as you're within the limits of your gun, you are safe.

With that being said, you DO NOT want to be the guy who happens to figure out just where that limit is. Blackpowder is fairly safe in that the maximum pressures it can generate are generally well within the capability of any modern muzzleloader to withstand, even in an overcharged situation. On the flipside, it is very easy to either load the wrong smokeless powder, or even just too much of the right smokeless powder, and the pressure that smokeless generates will cause a catastrophic result.

I do agree that the "DON'T USE SMOKELESS IN MUZZLELOADERS" rhetoric is mostly ass-coverage these days, however the fact of the matter is that most folks lack the knowledge and patience required to safely use the correct amount of the correct smokeless powder in a muzzleloader, and that means the liability is too great for modern manufacturers to accept.

Modern muzzleloader such as CVA's Paramount series are built on bolt action Bergara actions made from the same steel as their centerfire rifles, and they're every bit as strong. Nonetheless, CVA still advertises them as BP-only because they don't want the risk of some guy getting his Benchmark and Titegroup mixed up and turning his gun into a handheld claymore...

If you have the pressure-testing tools, a solid knowledge of powders and burn rates, an understanding of powder behaviour under pressure both before and during firing, and you fully understand the stretching/bursting pressures of all the components of your muzzleloader, you'll be perfectly safe running a carefully measured charge of the correct smokeless powder in it...

And I do mean "if"...
 
somebodytookmyname said:
alright, i'll chime in on this one, as one of the guys who runs a dedicated smokeless muzzleloader-

when weighed and properly used in such a way that it does not exceed the pressure of a max load of blackpowder, smokeless would be perfectly safe in any muzzleloader. Understand that pressure is pressure regardless of whether its generated by smokeless or blackpowder, and as long as you're within the limits of your gun, you are safe.

With that being said, you do not want to be the guy who happens to figure out just where that limit is. Blackpowder is fairly safe in that the maximum pressures it can generate are generally well within the capability of any modern muzzleloader to withstand, even in an overcharged situation. On the flipside, it is very easy to either load the wrong smokeless powder, or even just too much of the right smokeless powder, and the pressure that smokeless generates will cause a catastrophic result.

I do agree that the "don't use smokeless in muzzleloaders" rhetoric is mostly ass-coverage these days, however the fact of the matter is that most folks lack the knowledge and patience required to safely use the correct amount of the correct smokeless powder in a muzzleloader, and that means the liability is too great for modern manufacturers to accept.

Modern muzzleloader such as cva's paramount series are built on bolt action bergara actions made from the same steel as their centerfire rifles, and they're every bit as strong. Nonetheless, cva still advertises them as bp-only because they don't want the risk of some guy getting his benchmark and titegroup mixed up and turning his gun into a handheld claymore...

If you have the pressure-testing tools, a solid knowledge of powders and burn rates, an understanding of powder behaviour under pressure both before and during firing, and you fully understand the stretching/bursting pressures of all the components of your muzzleloader, you'll be perfectly safe running a carefully measured charge of the correct smokeless powder in it...

And i do mean "if"...
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finally , an honest and fearless man telling the truth. That is all i wanted. Thank you very much.
 
StoneHorse said:
Perhaps the information you seek is not available because very, very few people would attempt such a dangerous experiment. When a arms manufacturer states DO NOT USE SMOKELESS POWDER it's for your own safety and those around you. If you want to proceed do so at your own risk and by yourself.
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This is interesting you saying this. You have no problem accusing me of being foolish and dangerous. You jump all over me and try to discourage me. So let me ask you this, where were you when they were testing the corona virus in Whoohan China? Did you protest that? Did you protest the deaths that came from it? Are you protesting the lies the media is giving us or are you wearing a mask still. I'm not hurting you or anyone els , so keep your penniless opinions to yourself please.
 
Sometimes when I see threads like this I like to throw a grenade into the room and run away just to see what happens ....

but in this case I have to ask myself: "should I load that grenade with black or smokeless powder??"
 
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