Smokeless in modern muzeloaders

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Not exactly a muzzle loader but ive used smokeless in my lee metfords and also my 7184 mauser chambered in 43 mauser.

There is all kinds of loads on hodgdons website for using smokeless in 45-70 trap doors.

Smokeless in black powder guns happens. Check out hodgdon reloading online.
 
it should be noted that a lot of the time when smokeless is used in cartridge cases there is a large air gap, often the powder doesn't fill even half the case, causing it to burn at a lower pressure. with a muzzle loader you would have no space thus casing the pressure to get quite a bit higher. its often a few (~10gr) grains of pistol pawer in a big ole case, that same powder without the large case volume and a bullet seated right on tip of it such as in a muzzle loader would spike well above safe pressures

in theory you could use a smokeless powder in a muzzle loader if you accounted for the air space in the case. say if it was a 45 cal muzzle loader you could put the same amount of smokeless you would in a 45-70 case for a trapdoor rifle I the barrel, then seat the bullet to where it would be if it was loaded in a 45-70 case (40ish mm from breach plug), creating the same air volume as the 45-70 case would be in a breach loading rifle. use the same bullet weight, it would probably be the same pressure. if you just seat the bullet on the power without equivalent air space as the load you are duplicating you are looking for trouble in my eyes.
 
You also have to worry about ignition type if you used a slower power and tried to copy a full power round like a 458 winmag in a 45 cal muzzle loader. As most use a 209 primer and they were never made for so high of pressure also if other type of ignition then the flash hole size would be of concern as well.

In theory you could have a barrel made of 4140 or 416 and have it threaded for a breach plug opposed to a chamber. Then in that breach plug drill a proper sized flash hole for fulll house loads and bore it for a large rifle primer and then set head space so the pin hits the primer. Extracting the primer may be hard.
 
Evanguy said:
it should be noted that a lot of the time when smokeless is used in cartridge cases there is a large air gap, often the powder doesn't fill even half the case, causing it to burn at a lower pressure. with a muzzle loader you would have no space thus casing the pressure to get quite a bit higher. its often a few (~10gr) grains of pistol pawer in a big ole case, that same powder without the large case volume and a bullet seated right on tip of it such as in a muzzle loader would spike well above safe pressures

in theory you could use a smokeless powder in a muzzle loader if you accounted for the air space in the case. say if it was a 45 cal muzzle loader you could put the same amount of smokeless you would in a 45-70 case for a trapdoor rifle I the barrel, then seat the bullet to where it would be if it was loaded in a 45-70 case (40ish mm from breach plug), creating the same air volume as the 45-70 case would be in a breach loading rifle. use the same bullet weight, it would probably be the same pressure. if you just seat the bullet on the power without equivalent air space as the load you are duplicating you are looking for trouble in my eyes.
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In theory.

I know enough about the metallurgy being used for modern made BP Muzzle loader barrels as to be willing to say I don't want some fool in the bay beside me, working out the details.

They are using some pretty low strength steels, so as to reduce tooling wear and costs. They never expect the barrels to see any pressures beyond those produced by BP or it's substitutes, so that is as good as they put in to their product. Adequate and safe, if used as instructed. Or a grenade, just shaped differently, if not.
Savage decided to be done with the smokeless muzzle loaders, over the numbers of them that were blown up. Black Powder, as an explosive, is pretty low order stuff. Smokeless burns, rather than exploding, but it burns very, very fast, and there are records of some very strange effects from charges too low, as well as too large. Guys trying to load down their cartridges have found that below a certain point, the effects are as bad or worse than an overload.

Digging around the interwebs, you can find lots of pictures of otherwise nice firearms that were not able to withstand the pressures of the loads they were fed. A set of photos of a Scandinavian kid's Remington Rolling block come immediately to mind. He figured the ammo fit, it must be good. They never showed the xrays of his head, but I figure from the mess the breech block made of the outside of his face, it had to have ended up in his sinuses, if not right back into his brain pan. Apparently along with the rifle, he had dug up some cordite loaded Express rounds of some flavor that fit the chamber reasonably well.

Our intrepid angry young hero here seems to pick and choose the bits he wants to see, in the replies. As I doubt very much he actually has, or has access to, any of the pressure testing equipment that has been repeatedly suggested as a minimum, I strongly expect to here about him in the News.
 
Just to be clear im not suggesting he should do it or anyone else should do it. Im just typing stuff i think of for the sake of a convo

Im unsure of the metals used in making muzzle loader barrels, Personally i would have assumed/thought they use 4140 or something near that in all barrels as carbide holds up pretty well and 4140 doesnt cost much more then mild steel

But i honestly have no idea, you very well could be correct. Even a few dollars saved turns big savings over time

Using smokeless and loading to something like below 20,000 psi any steel would probably hold up, even if it was just 1018

Really its not something i have had an interest in. If i want a fast big bore i use my 460 weatherby or 500 jeffery, if i want a slow big bore i use one of my muzzle loaders.

I love playing with guns and reloading but i put smokless in brass cases and black powder down barrels.(sometimes in cases too)
 
Evanguy said:
Just to be clear im not suggesting he should do it or anyone else should do it. Im just typing stuff i think of for the sake of a convo

Im unsure of the metals used in making muzzle loader barrels, Personally i would have assumed/thought they use 4140 or something near that in all barrels as carbide holds up pretty well and 4140 doesnt cost much more then mild steel

But i honestly have no idea, you very well could be correct. Even a few dollars saved turns big savings over time

Using smokeless and loading to something like below 20,000 psi any steel would probably hold up, even if it was just 1018

Really its not something i have had an interest in. If i want a fast big bore i use my 460 weatherby or 500 jeffery, if i want a slow big bore i use one of my muzzle loaders.

I love playing with guns and reloading but i put smokless in brass cases and black powder down barrels.(sometimes in cases too)
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Yeah, except the intrepid there, is glomming on to anyone that says anything remotely in favor of the stuff, as if it's all the validation he needs to be able to say "But they told me it was OK!".

I don't honestly care if he wants to off himself, or go through his life with fingers that don't work. I've farted around with guns, motorcyles, some explosives, chainsaws, farm equipment, too many airplanes, and a bunch of other stuff, and I still have all of mine. It's something I am willing to recommend as a life goal, actually.

Last I had read, (Double Gun Journal Forum) a pressure transducer is worth pretty close to the price of a pretty nice new car, but he says he's gonna get the "pressure traces" information, whatever that means, from somewhere here on CGN (that post was edited out by the Mods, it seems). I dunno. Maybe it's hidden away in the womens or kids sub-forums, because it sure doesn't sound to me like anything I've run across here on CGN.

I'll differ from somebodytookmyname, in that pressure, isn't always the same thing. The time over which that pressure is applied, will change the end result in many cases, esp if you are already working near the terminal limits of the material you were hoping to have contain it. A slow application of pressure may well be contained, but that same pressure applied almost instantly, may exceed the ability of the material to deform fast enough, causing a rupture.

The burn rate and ignition characteristics of BP and Smokeless powders are very different, as are the burn rates of the various formulations of smokeless powders, else there would not be so many to choose from, each a proper choice for a range of case sizes, and, as I stated earlier, there are some known 'very bad things happen' from using the wrong amounts both to much, and surprisingly, too little. H-110, in particular has a bad rep for this.

BP is easy. Fill up the space. Wads, grease cookies, inert filler, etc., hell, even the US Cavalry stuck paper tubes into their 45-70 ammo to reduce the volume of powder used, and then ram that bullet down tight over it.
 
Evanguy said:
Just to be clear im not suggesting he should do it or anyone else should do it. Im just typing stuff i think of for the sake of a convo

Im unsure of the metals used in making muzzle loader barrels, Personally i would have assumed/thought they use 4140 or something near that in all barrels as carbide holds up pretty well and 4140 doesnt cost much more then mild steel

But i honestly have no idea, you very well could be correct. Even a few dollars saved turns big savings over time

Using smokeless and loading to something like below 20,000 psi any steel would probably hold up, even if it was just 1018

Really its not something i have had an interest in. If i want a fast big bore i use my 460 weatherby or 500 jeffery, if i want a slow big bore i use one of my muzzle loaders.

I love playing with guns and reloading but i put smokless in brass cases and black powder down barrels.(sometimes in cases too)
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I don't know why these posts always go south here, the OP is just thinking out loud. While I personally have no ambition to go stuff a ML with smokeless, it's not hard to see where thinking, knowing, and thinking they know shows up.
 
saskgunowner101 said:
I don't know why these posts always go south here, the OP is just thinking out loud. While I personally have no ambition to go stuff a ML with smokeless, it's not hard to see where thinking, knowing, and thinking they know shows up.
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Did you actually read what the OP had to say 'before' the Mods cleared out half his posts?

Because he certainly didn't seem to be "thinking out loud" to the rest of us. He's on like it's a conspiracy to make him have to buy Black Powder, among other things.

As I said above. I have all my fingers. If he follows the route of being 'smarter than the guys that made the stuff', the odds are pretty good he won't keep his.

Waddya know, eh? You have a vested interest. He might be in the bay or on the bench beside you while he's being smarter than all the rest of us. Good luck with that!
 
trevj said:
Did you actually read what the OP had to say 'before' the Mods cleared out half his posts?

Because he certainly didn't seem to be "thinking out loud" to the rest of us. He's on like it's a conspiracy to make him have to buy Black Powder, among other things.

As I said above. I have all my fingers. If he follows the route of being 'smarter than the guys that made the stuff', the odds are pretty good he won't keep his.

Waddya know, eh? You have a vested interest. He might be in the bay or on the bench beside you while he's being smarter than all the rest of us. Good luck with that!
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You truly are an unpleasant person. Did I hurt your ego or something?
 
Go back and read the original post. You might learn something. Just because the mods are protecting you doesn't mean you are correct. I didn't say anything that bad but the sqeaky wheels always get greased. LOL have fun talking to yourselves , I found what I was looking for from the very knowledgeable people that responded to my post. Thank you
 
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