Smokeless loads in old Damascus barrels

Win 38-55

Win 38-55

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I have been very impressed with the kind of testing that Sherman Bell has done for his articles in The Double Gun Journal. I have an old English double 12 Bore chambered for 2 & 1/2" cartridges, that is in excellent shape.

I emailed Sherman Bell to see if he had done any testing of smokeless loads for the 12 Bore 2 & 1/2". He replied that he had and gave me a list of issues, shown below. I emailed The Double Gun Journal to see if I could purchase copies of the 'Finding out for myself' articles in those issues, but they don't provide articles, I would have to purchase the entire set of issues for a handsome price.

If anyone here has copies of the issues shown below, I would be most interested in finding out exactly which issue or issues cover smokeless loading and testing for 12 Bore 2 & 1/2" shells. Here are the issues that Bell mentioned to look in ....

Summer 1999
Winter 1999
Winter 2001
Summer 2002
Summer 2005
Autumn 2006
Winter 2006
Summer 2007

Thanks for any help you can give me.
 
the problem with Damascus Barrels is that sometimes ( Not Always) pitting and small micro fractures set up between the twisted strands certainly not visible to the naked eye. The strands actually react to one another. Kind of like putting two strips of steel out in the weather ,one on top of the other.
Rust will form but it will be much worse between the plates than it is on the surface. Typically these older guns were fired with black powder and corrosive primers,that in itself was a problem . Carefull cleaning would have helped the barrel. Many many barrels are indeed just fine, Though I suspect the vast majority were not maintained to a high enough degree. So the standard rule of thumb is to say no to smokeless in twist steel barrels. Some were actually nitro (smokeless proved) . Best advise is to be prudent. Lots of these old guns will still work fine. I still like to use black as well and it will break the clays and down the birds if I point it right .
Good luck
 
All kinds of guys on the doublegunshop forum use them in damascus barreled guns. Most who are saying this are probably the same ones who are saying not to shoot damascus guns at all. These same people have never shot one. It has been shown in different tests that these old guns are safe with proper loads. Of course that means guns that are in safe condition and haven't been neglected or left to rust. But, you have modern guns as well that aren't safe to shoot because of neglect. In fact, all of the articles I have come across on forums about guns blowing up have been modern guns. And if an old gun has bores that are deemed not safe, you can get inserts that allow you to shoot a smaller gauge. If the gun is worth the price of a set of tubes.
 
I've read the results of enough actual tests to conclude that the warnings against Damascus barrels (which I've been hearing for at least 40 years) are actually old wives tails. In fact, actual tests show that it is the other way around .... the old Damascus barrels are actually stronger than the normal ones from the same time period. I surely appreciate the warnings, but I'm only interested in actual smokeless loads that have been tested and proven safe. The question I raised in this thread is specifically regarding the Bell articles. I'd love to get my hands on the Bell article that gives published, safe smokeless loads for the 2 & 1/2" 12 bore.
 
I shoot preasure appropriate "nitro-for-black" loads in vintage damascus sxs's regularly.

I have all the DGJ's but no duplicates, if you have no luck finding them you can borrow mine.

Mark
 
A lot of Damascus Barrels were proofed for Nitro Powder. If you have the "funds" they are still available today.Damascus barrels will not automatically result in instant death. If you have any doubts about a particular Gun get it checked out by a "quality" Gunsmith.
 
What are your eyes/fingers worth? Don't shoot smokeless loads through any damascus barrel unless you sleeve it. Whether you have ever shot one or not is irrelevant. You could shoot one 99 times and at the 100th time it could give way. Not worth the risk, IMHO.
 
I found Bell's articles very interesting and informative. His data were obtained using proper testing methods and technology. No guesswork, all hard numbers. Most of what you hear about this subject is based on opinion unsupported by empirical data.
 
Shootshellz said:
What are your eyes/fingers worth? Don't shoot smokeless loads through any damascus barrel unless you sleeve it. Whether you have ever shot one or not is irrelevant. You could shoot one 99 times and at the 100th time it could give way. Not worth the risk, IMHO.
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So could a modern gun blow up on the 100 th. fire. It greatly depends on condition and any gun regardless of age could be unfit to fire if neglected. Besides that, if you read articles where shotguns have blown up, it is usually due to something plugging the bore such as a stuck wad or making a mistake when reloading. Doesn't matter what the barrel material is then. We aren't saying take any old damascus gun and shoot the heck out of it. We are talking guns that are in good, safe condition.
 
gunsaholic said:
So could a modern gun blow up on the 100 th. fire. It greatly depends on condition and any gun regardless of age could be unfit to fire if neglected. Besides that, if you read articles where shotguns have blown up, it is usually due to something plugging the bore such as a stuck wad or making a mistake when reloading. Doesn't matter what the barrel material is then. We aren't saying take any old damascus gun and shoot the heck out of it. We are talking guns that are in good, safe condition.
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+1, Brian. More unsubstantiated fear mongering from a couple of posts. However, I'm with rhook, "send 'em to me and I'll get rid of them."
 
canvasback said:
+1, Brian. More unsubstantiated fear mongering from a couple of posts. However, I'm with rhook, "send 'em to me and I'll get rid of them."
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I agree. One needs to be prudent with any firearm. But, damacus barrels are no more inherently dangerous (or safer) than any other. Having said that, the older the gun, the more reason to be thorough.

Know your guns, or have them inspected by a professional.
 
Yup, let your gunsmith shoot your Damascus shotgun with smokeless loads. Then it is his eyes and fingers on the line when it eventually gives way (which it will). Just be sure you are on the other field with your modern gun, which by the way is proofed to not blow up.
 
Shootshellz said:
Yup, let your gunsmith shoot your Damascus shotgun with smokeless loads. Then it is his eyes and fingers on the line when it eventually gives way (which it will). Just be sure you are on the other field with your modern gun, which by the way is proofed to not blow up.
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Then why is it on every forum where a barrel is discussed that blew up it ends up being a modern gun? Do you actually think a modern gun can't blow up just because it's proofed? And why is it that everyone on this forum or doublegunshop forum that uses these old guns don't have them blow up. How many of these old guns have you seen that were blown up or actually know someone who had one blow up? And pretty much of any gun that blows up, like already mentioned, it is because of an obstruction or mistake on the powder charge if reloading. That is carelessness, not a faulty gun.
 
Shootshellz said:
What are your eyes/fingers worth? Don't shoot smokeless loads through any damascus barrel unless you sleeve it. Whether you have ever shot one or not is irrelevant. You could shoot one 99 times and at the 100th time it could give way. Not worth the risk, IMHO.
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And based on a survey of 1 or 2 isolated cases, it could also be said "You could shoot one 3 times and at the 4th time it could give way."
 
And these were featured at the recent SHOT show. They all appear to be modern barrels.
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