Smokeless powder in M/L = ?

nessy357

nessy357

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Copied this thread from the American Longrifle Forum.

n_Hunting_Accident_1217Z-1.jpg




Probably got the load data from a buddy with a Savage. It looks like it was a TC Renagade. It had to be a huge load from the looks of the thing. 100 grs of Bulleyes under a Maxi-bullet?

Derrick W. Edwards’ muzzleloader after it exploded. Pieces of the firearm were found 7 inches deep in the ground. Edwards’ arm was injured, but he was treated and released.

"DELANEY CREEK BOTTOMS — Derrick W. Edwards of Indianapolis was injured when his muzzleloader exploded after he finished deer hunting Sunday in Washington County.

Edwards, 46, suffered a laceration to his left forearm, and was treated and released at Schneck Medical Center in Seymour.

He was injured while attempting to unload his .54-caliber muzzleloader at the end of his hunt.

“Derrick W. Edwards also told investigators that he had loaded the muzzleloader with modern smokeless gunpowder instead of the required black powder,” according to an Indiana Conservation Officers news release. “Conservation officers recovered the firearm from Mr. Edwards and located pieces of the gun driven as deep as 7 inches into the ground at the accident scene.”

Muzzleloaders should always be loaded with black powder or the appropriate substitute. They are not manufactured to withstand the extreme pressures generated from modern smokeless gun powder.

“Mr. Edwards was extremely lucky he didn’t see a deer while hunting this morning,” stated Indiana Conservation Officer Phil Nale in the release. “Had he fired the firearms while shouldered near his head, his injuries could have been much worse.”
 
Ouch! Measuring smokeless by volume is not a good idea...especially in a caplock not designed for it...wow, that must have been a serious amount of powder. Guy is lucky to be alive.
 
Back in the early '70s when we were manufacturing Trade Guns, I know one of our guns was fired with smokeless. A guy's kids got hold of the gun and were shooting it with components recovered from broken down 20ga shotshells. The only detectable evidence was a little gas erosion cut in the pan where gas escaping from the touchole had grooved the metal. Now the barrel was 1137 steel, well breeched, but this sort of thing is still scary.
 
Shotgun powder is pretty fast, much faster burning than what is typically used in rifles. I don't know why someone would want to use smokeless in a muzzle loader, but if he had a good excuse (like, can't get BP), then I think he'd want to use slower smokeless powders and make jolly sure he worked up the load carefully, carefully weighing the powder, using something slower than 2400, and chronographing the results so he had half an idea of what was happening. It does seem like risky business to me and I'm not going to mess around doing something like that.
 
Win 38-55 said:
I don't know why someone would want to use smokeless in a muzzle loader, but if he had a good excuse (like, can't get BP)
Click to expand...

- Smokeless is non-corrosive (gun will last longer using it)
- Smokeless doesn't require cleaning after every shot (easier to use)
- Smokeless isn't hydroscopic, you can leave it loaded for days and expect the same POI
- With smokeless, you can see which way the deer ran after you hit it
- Smokeless is safer to handle
- Smokeless powder is cheaper

Those're my reasons for using it.

EDIT: I shoot a savage ML2, it is safe to shoot smokeless powder in that muzzleloader, this post wasn't meant to suggest reasons to shoot smokeless in any blackpowder-only MLs. Read your instruction manual.
 
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You just KNOW someone / somewhere is going to get sued over this. Personal accountibility and common sense have no place in civil litigation.
 
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Smokeless in ML?

Ikantski

You're kidding, right?
Risking potential injury to yourself is one thing; do so at your own peril, but consider the effect on others around you and the RFC in general.

When doing so, have the consideration to be as from removed from others as possible, preferably not on a public range so as not to tarnish their image and safety record.

Apply in advance to qualify for the aforementioned 'Darwin Award'. You're a prime candidate.

Todd
PS: the term for the propensity of BP fouling to attract moisture is "hygroscopic", not hydroscopic.
 
Relax man. I shoot a savage 10ML2 muzzleloader, it's safe to shoot smokeless out of it. It's an amazing rifle, I'm surprised some people who muzzleload don't know about it. I edited my first post to reflect that and thanks for the heads up on hygroscopic.
 
Yup perfectly safe in a Savage...following manufacturer recommendations of course but powder is definitely weighed and not measured with smokeless.
 
smokeless in ML

OK - alles klar ....

Had me going there .... being a traditionalist when it comes to ML'ing, I think in terms of conventional BP rifles. To me, inlines, etc., are ingenious answers to an unasked question.

The problem is that the uninformed may presume that "If it's OK in the Savage ...."' human stupidity knows no bounds.

Good shooting with your Savage and a Merry Xmas!

Todd
 
Ikantski said:
- Smokeless is non-corrosive (gun will last longer using it)
- Smokeless doesn't require cleaning after every shot (easier to use)
- Smokeless isn't hydroscopic, you can leave it loaded for days and expect the same POI
- With smokeless, you can see which way the deer ran after you hit it
- Smokeless is safer to handle
- Smokeless powder is cheaper

Those're my reasons for using it.

EDIT: I shoot a savage ML2, it is safe to shoot smokeless powder in that muzzleloader, this post wasn't meant to suggest reasons to shoot smokeless in any blackpowder-only MLs. Read your instruction manual.
Click to expand...
Well, I can't argue with that, and most of those reasons are why I use smokeless in my antique BP cartridge rifles and sixshooters. In theory, if a fellow knows what he's doing, the right kind of smokeless should be as safe or (for some powders) even safer than BP in a muzzle loader. When it comes to ML's, however, I've got zero experience and wouldn't know what I was doing.
 
"...100 grs of Bullseye..." That'd blow just about any firearm. It's very fast burning handgun powder. 2.7 grains produces 14,600 PSI with a cast .38 Special. This putz likely had well over 100,000 PSI.
 
sunray said:
"...100 grs of Bullseye..." That'd blow just about any firearm. It's very fast burning handgun powder. 2.7 grains produces 14,600 PSI with a cast .38 Special. This putz likely had well over 100,000 PSI.
Click to expand...

+1

If contained in a cartridge even half that would be truly scary load. While a muzzleloader might not allow the pressure to build up to as high a level still the results would be disastrous.
 
I have seen a Savage blown apart from a double charge of 4227, fellow was loading it, got distracted, son came behind him and finished the job, with another slug of powder, approx 100gr's worth, and a 300 gr sabot bullet combo. Split the barrel, blew the forearm off the stock, the Leupold VariX II into 2 pieces, bent the action. The shooter suffered minor injuries to face and arms, but is ok. (Have the pic's on my phone, have never figured out how to get them out though.) She wasn't a pretty sight though.

That being said, the Savage is a very tough gun "WHEN USED ACCORDING TO INSTRUCTIONS!" Like anything else, play at your own risk!
 
Oh man, get those pics out, I'd love to see them. I've heard of savages being fired double loaded with bad recoil and a few bulged barrels but never like what you described.
 
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