Smokeless powder in muzzleloader?
- Thread starter War Song
- Start date
If the guy was willing to sacrifice three muzzleloaders, he could have taken one of them and loaded and shot it progressively using 6.0, 12.0, 18.0, 24.0 grs etc. That way something might have been learned. However, if the point you want to stress is to never, never, never use smokeless in a muzzleloader, then a video of "a muzzleloader that done blowed up using smokeless" is more than sufficient proof for people who need others to think for them.
I recall an article in Double Gun Journal in which quality Damascus barrelled shotguns were tested to destruction, using an incremental approach. Interesting results, given the "don't ever shoot any Damascus barrelled gun" opinion often expressed. Took waaay more to damage the guns than one would expect.
tylerjwitty
CGN frequent flyer
- Location
- Northern Ontario
I wish I had those gun
Smokeless should only be used in firearms designed for it. That said there are aftermarket barrels being made for some other firearms like the encore. Just because it doesn't blow up the first time doesn't mean it won't blow up on the 100th.
Substitutes like pyrodex and 777 are not considered smokeless. Read the manual that comes with your firearm and it will detail which loads are safe.
Substitutes like pyrodex and 777 are not considered smokeless. Read the manual that comes with your firearm and it will detail which loads are safe.
tactical lever
CGN frequent flyer
- Location
- Fox Creek, Alberta
There has to be a distinction made between shooting smokeless in the two types of firearms - muzzle-loader and cartridge - that were originally designed for black powder. If you understand how smokeless powder burns and generates pressure, there are safe ways to load cartridges with smokeless powder and lead projectiles, and shoot them in black powder cartridge guns. The critical issue is having a combination of powder burn-rate, air-space and projectile resistance (mass and engraving/frictional pressure) that produce peak pressures that are within the firearm's safe breech and barrel pressure limits. This can be pre-calculated with some accuracy if you have the know-how. I have done lots of experiments using 45-70 and 50-70 with cast boolets and various smokeless powders, and in the end, the ballistics are actually often better, i.e. more consistent muzzle velocity and subsequent trajectory, with black powder or Pyrodex! The real challenge becomes the lubrication (bullet lube, grease cookie, etc.)
There's much greater risk with muzzle-loaders, even if you weigh out a "safe" amount of smokeless powder. This is because in the majority of cases, smokeless powder needs an air-space behind the projectile, and IMO this is too difficult to precisely control with a muzzle-loader. This air-space is a complete no-no with black powder, of course, but a must with the kind of smokeless loads we're talking about (peak pressures under, say 30 Kpsi). The amount of space will greatly influence the peak pressure.
So for the brand X .50-cal smoke-pole, under a 185-grain ball, you'd need N grains of "WYZ-BANG" smokeless powder, for example, and you'd need to seat the ball, say, exactly .321" above the smokeless powder. You would have to somehow set up your ramrod to do this accurately every single time. To me the whole thing just sounds like an accident begging to happen. Too much air-space, and the smokeless powder will not burn efficiently: you haven't blown anything up but bullet is stuck somewhere in the barrel. Too little airspace.... well, hopefully you have set your affairs in order. Is there an address to send a card or flowers?
The above is the correct answer.
That's a little over the line.
I can appreciate the technical curiousity, and for sure it can be done but for sure you would have to work out the how and why.
There are far too many old wives tales and half truths about, well pretty well everything. Jethunter has it right, as its easy to regulate the charge, COAL and pressures doing it in a cartridge.
I would think that if it was to be done, using a bp revolver, some sort of voluminous powder (Trail Boss, maybe?), and/or some sort of spacer or wadding similar in a shotgun application would be the way to do it. While Bulls Eye would be a recipe for a blow up.
Of course extreme caution, coupled with an absolute rock solid degree of repeatability would rule the success of any experimentation done. It would not hurt to use something known for strength to begin with, such as a Ruger Old Army.
^...or, GOEX FFF!? 
- Location
- Ft. Mac. Alberta
Those propellants however are called. " black powder substitutes " not smokeless propellants like say, IMR PB or Hodgdon HS6 .
I gon't use any of those modern substitutes in my PRB guns however,I prefer real BP
Cat
tactical lever
CGN frequent flyer
- Location
- Fox Creek, Alberta
^...or, GOEX FFF!?
Right on! I don't care what anyone says; there are far too many questioning minds, inventors, and innovators out there. Not enough people that can instantly regurgitate the contents of the hundred odd books out there.
I think that is a pretty fair answer. If the question was: "What's a simple proven propellant for my bp pistol?"
I think the scope of the question was a little beyond that however.
