snider.577

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577/450

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Just looked at a 3 band snider. real nice shape shiney bore bueing intact??? should'nt the thing be a rust blue? Many stamps and proof marks also has a SNIDER PATENT mark(real tiny lettering) just in front of the hammer mech.
What makes me question it is that the barrell is stamped as "STEEL" on the left side just below the back of the sight. and yes it is worthles w/o pics

Can someone point to a website that could help me id this before I buy it?
 
I don't think that the word Steel is anything to worry about. I am pretty sure my military snider has it on the barrel as well. I imagine the word was to indicate that the barrel was not wrought iron

cheers mooncoon
 
I did some reseach on the net and there is lots of info out there. Sounds like the one I looked at was manufactured as a snider and isn't a conversion also the lock design on the block will show it to be a MK III made after1869.
Moncoon. how is your stock finish dull shiney varnished? I would like to confirm wheather the stock on this one is refinshed or not. Thanks
 
577/450 said:
Moncoon. how is your stock finish dull shiney varnished? I would like to confirm wheather the stock on this one is refinshed or not. Thanks
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I have both a snider and a perc enfield and a P 53 (shortened one) and a martini. They all have what I would describe as a dull varnished look although I am not convinced that it is varnish or at least varnish as we know it today. Almost a waxed look.
I think that a refinished gun would be semi obvious in the sense of marks being sanded off and rounded edges and corners and so forth.

cheers mooncoon
 
Snider's

The first Snider's (Mk.I & II) were converted P53 muskets (mostly) & hence were iron. They started running out of muskets to convert & with the new built (not converted) Mk.III's started using steel barrel's & stamped them "Steel".

My military 1863 Mk.II** is "Browned" but civilian versions (indicated by the "Snider Patent") may have been blued.

Peter (Burlington, Ontario)


mooncoon said:
I have both a snider and a perc enfield and a P 53 (shortened one) and a martini. They all have what I would describe as a dull varnished look although I am not convinced that it is varnish or at least varnish as we know it today. Almost a waxed look.
I think that a refinished gun would be semi obvious in the sense of marks being sanded off and rounded edges and corners and so forth.

cheers mooncoon
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Moncoon Sounds like you have experience with these rifles?I can find brass easy but bullets or molds not so much. If you have a source for them please share.
 
577/450 said:
Moncoon Sounds like you have experience with these rifles?I can find brass easy but bullets or molds not so much. If you have a source for them please share.
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Higginson's sells a Lee Mold for the .577, IIRC it was designed by Kerry Jennkinson - super mold BTW, and correct fpr the Snider.
Cat
 
577/450 said:
Moncoon Sounds like you have experience with these rifles?I can find brass easy but bullets or molds not so much. If you have a source for them please share.
Click to expand...

l have 3 Lyman molds and a couple of others that I have picked up in gun shows over the years. The latest one is a Lyman 611 that I have opened up a trifle to about 585 and on all 3 Lyman's I intermittently play with skirt configuration. So far accuracy has been pretty poor and the snider cartridge is probably the most difficult one I have ever tried to get to shoot well. Compounded by bore dimensions vary widely.
I think I mentioned earlier that original skirts appear to be relatively thick at the bottom edge; around .1". I also found that with base plugs that come to a sharp point to leave a conical cavity with a pointed top, I often get air holes in the top of the cavity from shrinkage. Also with thin skirts, the lead and mold has to be hot to avoid wrinkles and creases in the skirt. I am currently playing with a flat top to the cavity and less taper to the cavity. In other words a skirt that runs about 1/2 way up starting about .1" thick at the bottom and somewhat thicker at the top.

I am currently intending to concentrate on a Rigby sporting rifle and a Lang double rifle in 577 snider and if and when I get them to shoot well, can play with a military snider and a percussion enfield.

cheers mooncoon
 
Snider bullets

Since I don't cast my own (yet). I buy my Snider bullets from a guy in Maitland, Ontario (R&R Bullets).
They are flat bottom, 475 grain & .588 nominal. I just received his 2011 catalogue, so if anyone wants a copy please PM me & I will forward to you.

Peter (Burlington, Ontario)

577/450 said:
Moncoon Sounds like you have experience with these rifles?I can find brass easy but bullets or molds not so much. If you have a source for them please share.
Click to expand...
 
mooncoon said:
a Lang double rifle in 577 snider
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Mooncoon, I have never seen a double snider!!!

I would love to see how she functions...Are the blocks standard snider military style??

Do both open to the right???

I think a pictoral examination of the arm would be really interesting!!

Cheers.
 
I said it was a double rifle in 577 snider not a double snider :>) The gun looks like a shotgun with sights on it but inside has deep rifling. I tried out my latest concoction today at the range 60 grains of 2F, about 3/4 of a 20 muzzle loading shotgun cushion wad and a bullet from the modified mold ---- did not work worth a tinker's damn. I think I am going to have to try a solid base bullet and see if that works.

cheers mooncoon

there I have edited it to include a photo

Langrightb.jpg
 
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mooncoon said:
I said it was a double rifle in 577 snider not a double snider :>) The gun looks like a shotgun with sights on it but inside has deep rifling. I tried out my latest concoction today at the range 60 grains of 2F, about 3/4 of a 20 muzzle loading shotgun cushion wad and a bullet from the modified mold ---- did not work worth a tinker's damn.
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Have you tried roundball loads?
 
Not yet because the guns were made for slugs. I think I might make a solid base plug for the mold and try using some solid based slugs. So far the double is not only no regulating, it is not even grouping for one barrel. The Rigby was spraying slugs laterally about 5" either side of center

cheers mooncoon
 
Here is a pic of the bullet I use .590 dia. solid base and I use Mag Tech 24gauge shot gun brass If you don't want to cut it down yourself look up gads custom cartridges.
PC060164.jpg
 
I shoot a MkIII three-band and a Sergeant's model - the short rifle. Both shoot a .590 Minie bullet weighing 535gr made by opening out an older Lyman mould. Here in UK we now have a custom-ball and bullet mould maker who could do anything you like for $$$$.

I shoot the rifle with a 75gr load of FFG and the carbine with 65gr - I am still shooting the fifty-odd Eley-Kynoch cases I got with the three-bander about twenty years ago.

tac
 
In any three band Snider the round ball cast at .590" - .600" will work the best. These slow twist rifles were not designed to shoot conical bullets. I have a .590" conical bullet which will shoot well but not as well as round balls. A very short conical, given the diameter of the Snider and the 1:72" twist rate, may shoot better than the longer conicals. Mooncoon, what is the twist rate of the Snider double? Have you slugged the bore...what is the diameter? I am close to Maitland On. so I will have to find out who it is there making the cast bullets. By the way, the two band Snider is a "short rifle" and not termed a carbine.....picky, I know! I have three conical moulds so if I can be of any assistance please advise. Dave
PS - Hillbilly, it is 24 guage brass you want. Magtech makes it and they are about $25.00 per box of 25.....full brass which needs to be trimmed before use.
 
mooncoon said:
I said it was a double rifle in 577 snider not a double snider :>)
Langrightb.jpg
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What a amazing looking arm!! I did think a double drop block snider would be a bit odd- ha ha ha- This is much more logical;)

I bet when you get her loads figured out she will perform great.

Really quite a stunning find I think!
 
Bullet alloy

I had been trying to coerce my snider to shoot well with minnies for about a year until I accidentally cast some out of wheel weights. The result was like night and day. My current pet load is 65 grains of 2F with a thin gasket material wad. Then it is topped with cream of wheat. I can keep all the shots in the black with this load at 100.

Cheers. Steve.
mooncoon said:
l have 3 Lyman molds and a couple of others that I have picked up in gun shows over the years. The latest one is a Lyman 611 that I have opened up a trifle to about 585 and on all 3 Lyman's I intermittently play with skirt configuration. So far accuracy has been pretty poor and the snider cartridge is probably the most difficult one I have ever tried to get to shoot well. Compounded by bore dimensions vary widely.
I think I mentioned earlier that original skirts appear to be relatively thick at the bottom edge; around .1". I also found that with base plugs that come to a sharp point to leave a conical cavity with a pointed top, I often get air holes in the top of the cavity from shrinkage. Also with thin skirts, the lead and mold has to be hot to avoid wrinkles and creases in the skirt. I am currently playing with a flat top to the cavity and less taper to the cavity. In other words a skirt that runs about 1/2 way up starting about .1" thick at the bottom and somewhat thicker at the top.

I am currently intending to concentrate on a Rigby sporting rifle and a Lang double rifle in 577 snider and if and when I get them to shoot well, can play with a military snider and a percussion enfield.

cheers mooncoon
Click to expand...
 
Dantforth said:
Mooncoon, what is the twist rate of the Snider double? Have you slugged the bore...what is the diameter?
Click to expand...

The twist in the double rifle is between 1:40 and 1:44 and in the Rigby sporting snider it appears to be 1:40. both have deep rifling and should shoot well with soft bullets but so far do not. The groove diameter in the double appears to be about .585 or a bit more and the Rigby appears to be around .590 but the rifling is already cutting the slugs that I am shooting and with obturation they should fill the bore easily. They do stabilize but just are not accurate so far. The rifling twist should stabilize a bullet up to at least 1.1" and the various molds throw slugs shorter than that.
I think I may open the mold up a bit more to closer to .590 and go to a very shallow skirt; maybe .1" deep. I also keep wondering if making the bullets hollow nose would make a difference. The originals were hollow nosed but the cavity was then covered over so that they appeared to be solid nose. I am also wondering about my practice of filling the base cavity with some shotgun cushion wad and or most recently cushion wad between powder and slug. The counter to that is that my previous charge of I think 80 grains of 1F and no wad was just as poor in accuracy.
Sniders are puzzling guns; for some people they shoot very well for many others you would be hard pressed to hit the inside of a barn shooting out.

cheers mooncoon
 
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