So 150 g ttsx or 180 partitions for moose

[captonion]

And no, it's not just a "story." Several scientific papers have been published on this over the last few years,

I know the articles you speak of...WHO keeps the meat to consume thats been pulerised by a bullet? ALL of meat well around the wound channel is scrapped getting rid of any such lead contamination...If you don't cut your own meat, this should be done even before you take it to the butcher..If not, it's your fault your eating lead...

In the articles, the carcasses are taken to the butcher, without any such pre-butcher preperation...Any wonder they foud lead after it was processed!

No talk about shall game shot with rimfire, or upland game shot with leat shot...

Born & raised in Northern BC, and proud of it, but I fail to see why where I'm from has much of anything to do with it except a lame attempt at a put-down on your part.

Not trying to put you down at all...The only people I have ever heard concern about lead consumption where all city dwellers...Two guys I hunt with, who each bring a year worth of magazine subscriptions when they show up to be exact...Alot of good reading, and some, not so much..

 

[Barnes_270]

I know the articles you speak of...WHO keeps the meat to consume thats been pulerised by a bullet? ALL of meat well around the wound channel is scrapped getting rid of any such lead contamination...If you don't cut your own meat, this should be done even before you take it to the butcher..If not, it's your fault your eating lead...

In the articles, the carcasses are taken to the butcher, without any such pre-butcher preperation...Any wonder they foud lead after it was processed!

No talk about shall game shot with rimfire, or upland game shot with leat shot...



Not trying to put you down at all...The only people I have ever heard concern about lead consumption where all city dwellers...Two guys I hunt with, who each bring a year worth of magazine subscriptions when they show up to be exact...Alot of good reading, and some, not so much..

If you read the article I linked to, it describes just how well lead fragments spread into what appears to be unaffected meat - to the point where even strip loin shows some embedded lead when there was no appearance of damage. The meat processors they used also took care to remove meat from the immediate wound channel, since they were experienced wild meat cutters. The researchers then used live pigs to assess the bio-availability of lead in the meat, and noted a scientifically significant spike in blood lead concentrations after feeding, when compared to uncontaminated controls.

The net result is that if you're eating meat shot with a frangible lead bullet it is very likely that you are consuming at least some lead fragments and that some of that lead enters your bloodstream. Is it a dangerous level? Probably (hopefully) not, but lead is nasty, toxic stuff and I have no interest in consuming any, in any amount. Nor do I wish to feed any to my growing children.

The solution has been to switch to an all-copper bullet (the TTSX), which has performed fabulously for me thus far. It seems to me that expansion failures seem to be bullet-specific (i.e. certain bullet diameters and weights seem to be more prone to failure) and happen when the impact speed drops. I use the .277 110gr TTSX in 270 Win with a muzzle velocity of bang on 3200 fps. This keeps the impact velocity at high values out to the ranges I am willing to shoot game (max 300 yards).

If I was having expansion issues using the TTSX I'd drop down a weight or two to get the speed up. Lack of penetration is not going to be an issue with dropping down a weight or two. Keep a TTSX moving quickly and they work like a charm.

 

[1899]

It seems to me that expansion failures seem to be bullet-specific (i.e. certain bullet diameters and weights seem to be more prone to failure) and happen when the impact speed drops. I use the .277 110gr TTSX in 270 Win with a muzzle velocity of bang on 3200 fps. This keeps the impact velocity at high values out to the ranges I am willing to shoot game (max 300 yards).

If I was having expansion issues using the TTSX I'd drop down a weight or two to get the speed up. Lack of penetration is not going to be an issue with dropping down a weight or two. Keep a TTSX moving quickly and they work like a charm.

I actually think the problem is batch specific, as opposed to diameter/weight specific. The muzzle velocity of the 185 TTSX was ~3000fps, so you can figure out the velocity at 200 yards. The .375" 270gr was +2700 fps iirc, and the impact was at 90 yards or so.

The funny thing is that, using those exact same bullet diameters/weights others have had excellent results. In fact, I have seen excellent results from heavier/slower .338 TSX bullets. That is why I think it may be batch specific.

 

[3macs1]

Barnes270 - that was the exact reason I really wanted the TSX to work. I have pm'd John Barsness back and forth and he said he researched the matter when it came up a few years ago (note you quote a 2009 article) and he said the only evidence he could find one way or the other was a long term Austrian study in which the hunters had LESS lead than the regular population.

I stopped worrying about it.

Exactly. Ok lets look at it this way. How many coal fired gen plants in operation in canada. 4 in my province alone each putting out 25 ton plus yes 25 ton of lead a year.
or do people realise when they took the lead out of gasoline it didnot come out of aviation fuel used in piston engines. Last year in canada alone over 300 ton of lead was used and burned to make aviation fuel.
Wheel weights, galvanized guard rails, bridges etc etc.all breaking down What do people think is in galvanizing a good portion of LEAD
Barnes 270 if you honestly think that 180 grain partition is hurting you in the big pictures spend more time shooting so you can take head shots if it still bothers you.
Check out the old california condors. Almost 4 years ago they blamed the hunters bullets for the lead poisioning and made their range 100% lead free as far as bullets were concerned. Well the last report just indicated no change and if anything the lead in their blood went up but they are still blaming the hunters bullets???.
Like I said to the guys here it is like pissing in the ocean the difference lead bullets are making in the big picture. Some try to compare it to the old waterfowl lead isse. That was real considering every time 4 guys got out in a blind they probally left behind over 30 pounds of lead in the same spot of water for 100 years. Not the odd 180g bullet.
My apologies to the OP for side tracking but as you can see I am partition to the bone.

 

[Barnes_270]

I actually think the problem is batch specific, as opposed to diameter/weight specific. The muzzle velocity of the 185 TTSX was ~3000fps, so you can figure out the velocity at 200 yards. The .375" 270gr was +2700 fps iirc, and the impact was at 90 yards or so.

The funny thing is that, using those exact same bullet diameters/weights others have had excellent results. In fact, I have seen excellent results from heavier/slower .338 TSX bullets. That is why I think it may be batch specific.

The other variable here is that when an animal is lost we have no information on how that particular bullet performed, or if its (assumed) failure had anything to do with the loss of the animal. In Africa they shoot solids for max penetration, and they work well when they are placed correctly. A "failed" TTSX is a slightly expanded solid. In the right spot it's going to do the job.

 

[Barnes_270]

Exactly. Ok lets look at it this way. How many coal fired gen plants in operation in canada. 4 in my province alone each putting out 25 ton plus yes 25 ton of lead a year.
or do you realise when they took the lead out of gasoline it didnot come out of aviation fuel used in piston engines. Last year in canada alone over 300 ton of lead was used to make aviation fuel.

You honestly think that 180 grain partition is hurting you in the big picture.
Spend more time shooting so you can take head shots if it still bothers you.
Check out the old california condors. Almost 4 years ago they blamed the hunters bullets for the lead poisioning and made their range 100% lead free as far as bullets were concerned. Well the last report just indicated no change and if anything the lead in their blood went up.
Like I said to the guys here it is like pissing in the ocean the difference lead bullets are making in the big picture.

Sigh. Go back and read my original comment. Given equal accuracy in a particular gun, my preference would be for the TTSX since it does not fragment. Yes, the NP is a great bullet. No, I'd rather do the work to get a good load with a copper bullet.

The evidence is good that lead from bullets enters the bloodstream when consumed in wild meat. There is (as of yet) no evidence that this leads to developmental issues or problems for hunters, ON AVERAGE. One thing you need to realize about epidemiology is that its power to detect effects depends on averaged data, and one that does not take into account (at least not yet) the specific genetic and/or environmental factors for AN INDIVIDUAL. It's like to old observation that granny smoked a pack a day until she died in her sleep at 102, but Uncle Bill who smoked the same amount keeled over with lung disease when he was 42. Same risk activity, different genetics and environments = different outcomes.

Based on what we know about lead from animal studies, there is no known "safe" limit to consume. We simply don't know what the effects might be at these relatively low levels. Probably not much, but I'd rather not find out later that was a gamble I shouldn't have taken, or that my kids have genetic background X that makes them predisposed to environmental influence Y. That's not scare mongering, and yes, I realize it's much more likely that I'll be run over in a crosswalk, but I've decided not to knowingly expose my kids to lead if I can help it. Besides, the TTSX has worked great for me, shoots very accurately, and everything so far has been DRT, in its tracks (which I can say certainly wasn't the case before with lead bullets for me, even with excellent shot placement). So, what's not to like?

All that to say hunt with what you will, and it's probably fine, but I'm happy using copper.

 

[Barnes_270]

Barnes 270 if you honestly think that 180 grain partition is hurting you in the big pictures spend more time shooting so you can take head shots if it still bothers you.

Head shots on large game? No thanks. Last year I had a very easy shot and decided to break the spine in the neck on my deer, but that was under perfect conditions, and under later reflection it was a something of a gamble I don't think I'll repeat. Still, those untouched ribs tasted good...

 

[1899]

The other variable here is that when an animal is lost we have no information on how that particular bullet performed, or if its (assumed) failure had anything to do with the loss of the animal. In Africa they shoot solids for max penetration, and they work well when they are placed correctly. A "failed" TTSX is a slightly expanded solid. In the right spot it's going to do the job.

Yes, they use + .375" solids on big, heavy game - like Cape Buffalo and up. Do they use solids on Impala, Zebra or the like? No. In fact, I believe that the vast majority of Cape Buffalo are also shot with expanding bullets. There is nothing in North Ameica as stout as a Cape Buffalo.

Here is a picture of a .338 out of a .340 Wby that was recovered from a moose (granted, it was 535 yards. The second shot severed the femoral artery and allowed recovery of the animal. Had it not been for luck this would have also been a "missed" animal:

Bullet at far right is .358" 225gr, also recovered from Moose:

I never bothered posting any of this stuff here this spring because I figured there would be plenty of drama. I did post some of the test results in a different forum (that thread led to the posting of the above noted pictures) and talked to + pm'd with a variety of very experienced hunters and a gun writer. In fact, I know there are several experienced hunters on this forum who have had some problems in the past.

Unlike me they are just smart enough to keep their mouths shut!

I'll leave it be with a quote from a post by John Barsness on a different forum:

Naw, I'm not an expert in all things related to shooting and hunting, but I am continually learning, thanks to shooting animals with a wide variety of bullets.

I've used Nosler Partitions since the mid-1970's, back when they still had relief grooves and the jackets were turned, not extruded. I've shot over 100 big game animals personally with them, and seen at least that many more killed with Partitions by friends and family.

But they're not the only bullets I use, since part of my job is to test a wide variety of bullets both in various kinds of media and on game. In fact for most of the last decade I rarely used Partitions because there were so many new bullets introduced. I've been shooting Barnes X's of every generation since the late 80's, and have thoroughly tested just about every other "premium" bullet, including all the versions of Trophy Bondeds from Jack Carter's originals to the latest Tipped model; all the Swift bullets (including both the original Scirocco and SII); North Forks; Hornady Interbonds, GMX's and DGX's; Speer Grand Slams and DeepCurls; Remington Core-Lokt Ultras, etc. etc.

I also know the other Nosler bullets quite well, whether Ballistic Tips, AccuBonds or E-Tips. In fact I tested some prototype E-Tips on an African cull hunt in 2007, where almost 200 animals were taken over a month of shooting by me and my companions. I've also gone to New Zealand to thoroughly test Berger VLD's on a bunch feral goats and other game including red stags. Oh, and I also have shot several semi-loads of big game with "ordinary" bullets from Hornady, Remington, Sierra, Speer and Winchester. I always autopsy the animals myself, or watch it done when that isn't possible, as it sometimes isn't in Africa, to find out exactly how the bullets worked.

This year I used more Nosler Partitions than in any other year for the past decade, because I'd learned how those other bullets work--and didn't find any of them killed any better than the right Partition put in the right place. But even while using several Partitions from 6.5mm to .416, I also shot big game with Hornady Interbonds, Federal Fusions, Barnes TTSX's, Nosler Ballistic Tips, and Sierra ProHunters.

Over the years I've seen some very weird field results with some of the bullets you apparently regard as infallible, including repeated instances that would have to be considered total failures, but have yet to see that happen with hundreds of Nosler Partitions. I've also run into a bunch of hunters like you, who "know" all sorts of stuff without actually doing a lot of comparison testing. If you had, you might know as much as you think you do.

edit - that post was in response to a fellow saying that a Nosler Partition in a 7mm RM is a recipe for wounded game in Africa. He said you need a TSX or A-Frame.

 

[3macs1]

Sigh. Go back and read my original comment. Given equal accuracy in a particular gun, my preference would be for the TTSX since it does not fragment. Yes, the NP is a great bullet. No, I'd rather do the work to get a good load with a copper bullet.

The evidence is good that lead from bullets enters the bloodstream when consumed in wild meat. There is (as of yet) no evidence that this leads to developmental issues or problems for hunters, ON AVERAGE. One thing you need to realize about epidemiology is that its power to detect effects depends on averaged data, and one that does not take into account (at least not yet) the specific genetic and/or environmental factors for AN INDIVIDUAL. It's like to old observation that granny smoked a pack a day until she died in her sleep at 102, but Uncle Bill who smoked the same amount keeled over with lung disease when he was 42. Same risk activity, different genetics and environments = different outcomes.

Based on what we know about lead from animal studies, there is no known "safe" limit to consume. We simply don't know what the effects might be at these relatively low levels. Probably not much, but I'd rather not find out later that was a gamble I shouldn't have taken, or that my kids have genetic background X that makes them predisposed to environmental influence Y. That's not scare mongering, and yes, I realize it's much more likely that I'll be run over in a crosswalk, but I've decided not to knowingly expose my kids to lead if I can help it. Besides, the TTSX has worked great for me, shoots very accurately, and everything so far has been DRT, in its tracks (which I can say certainly wasn't the case before with lead bullets for me, even with excellent shot placement). So, what's not to like?

All that to say hunt with what you will, and it's probably fine, but I'm happy using copper.

What's not to like besides the additional cost how about another toe hold for the anti's. First no lead hunting bullets then no lead at ranges or sporting clays. etc etc. Hard enough trying to keep our sport alive with todays prices. Like I have said to others the one box a year boys don't care but the 10,000 rounders a year sure do.take care

 

[Barnes_270]

What's not to like besides the additional cost how about another toe hold for the anti's. First no lead hunting bullets then no lead at ranges or sporting clays. etc etc. Hard enough trying to keep our sport alive with todays prices. Like I have said to others the one box a year boys don't care but the 10,000 rounders a year sure do.take care

Ok, I went and did a quick check: at Cabela's (the Canadian site) the current retail price for the .277 TTSX 130gr is less than the current price for the .277 150gr NP. So, the price argument is pretty weak.

Look, the NP is a great bullet. If I shot a lead bullet I would use it. My personal preference is not about to sink our sport or hand ammo to the antis, nor am I saying that you shouldn't use it. It it works for you, great. I'd rather not, but that's my preference.

 

[Johnn Peterson]

Over the years I've used a fair variety of lead core hunting bullets. On game and punching paper, all have done their job. On a fairly recent Mule Deer hunt on draw in AB, my Daughter and I were using very similar calibres. As luck would have it our shots and the conditions on the animals we got were close to being identical with one exception. The bullets used. I was using a Sierra 200gr Gameking or SBT and my Daughter a Barnes 180gr TTSX. The amount of meat loss on my animal was considerably greater from the lead fragmentation.

Admittedly, until I saw that and a few other similar examples since, I've been a bit of a 'stick in the mud' concerning my choice in bullets and reasons for those choices. I'm from the pre-metric era and as such, technology and I haven't marched ahead at the same pace. I've settled on the following Barnes bullets in the following hunting calibres;

• 130gr TTSX in the 270 Win
• 140gr TTSX in the 7x61 S&H
• 150gr TTSX in the 30-06
• 168gr TTSX &/or 180gr TTSX in the 308 NM, a little undecided yet.
• 225gr TSX in the 358 NM

I have a draw for antlered Mule Deer in AB again this year and the Schultz & Larsen 7x61 S&H with Barnes 140gr TTSX will likely get the call.

 

[3macs1]

Head shots on large game? No thanks. Last year I had a very easy shot and decided to break the spine in the neck on my deer, but that was under perfect conditions, and under later reflection it was a something of a gamble I don't think I'll repeat. Still, those untouched ribs tasted good...

Well my friend you did not grow up in the same era I did. It was all head shots for us growing up and still for me to this day The old man would be pissed for destroying meat if we didnot. Lost one doe in over 40 years of pulling the trigger. It's all about knowing your gun and your capabilities.

 

[Eagleye]

Well my friend you did not grow up in the same era I did. It was all head shots for us growing up and still for me to this day The old man would be pissed for destroying meat if we did not. Lost one doe in over 40 years of pulling the trigger. It's all about knowing your gun and your capabilities.

Head and neck shots are low percentage shots, and should not be attempted any farther out than 75 yards or so.
I have seen several animals over the years with the bottom jaw hanging.
It is gruesome and cruel.
While I have taken a half dozen animals with head/neck shots, most were inside 30 yards.
Heart-lung area is most dependable for quick, humane kills.
Eagleye.

 

[3macs1]

Ok, I went and did a quick check: at Cabela's (the Canadian site) the current retail price for the .277 TTSX 130gr is less than the current price for the .277 150gr NP. So, the price argument is pretty weak.

Look, the NP is a great bullet. If I shot a lead bullet I would use it. My personal preference is not about to sink our sport or hand ammo to the antis, nor am I saying that you shouldn't use it. It it works for you, great. I'd rather not, but that's my preference.

Weak??? Yes for the one box a year shooter. I reload all my rounds so it would not be even close to the same price to develop a hunting load with no lead .
or worse I do shot gun @ 3.50 a box for lead target and 8.50 for steel. I won't be shooting much.
Anyway it is Ok for us to disagree be a boring site if not. Cheers
I just get my hackles up I guess when I hear guys going away from lead bullets on their own for what I think is the wrong reason i.e. lead contamination in wild game knowing the fight the nra just won a few months back to allow us to keep using it.

 

[3macs1]

Head and neck shots are low percentage shots, and should not be attempted any farther out than 75 yards or so.
I have seen several animals over the years with the bottom jaw hanging.
It is gruesome and cruel.
While I have taken a half dozen animals with head/neck shots, most were inside 30 yards.
Heart-lung area is most dependable for quick, humane kills.
Eagleye.

Agree eagleeye but again it makes a big difference what part of the country you hunt in. Down here it is heavy bush and very rare are animals taken at more than 100 so why a heart lung at 10-50 yards and damage meat. If one cannot make a good head shot at that range. HUMMM

 

[Eagleye]

Agree eagleeye but again it makes a big difference what part of the country you hunt in. Down here it is heavy bush and very rare are animals taken at more than 100 so why a heart lung at 10-50 yards and damage meat. If one cannot make a good head shot at that range. HUMMM

I guess you read my first sentence??
I did not say they should never be taken, only that it is not wise to try them outside of 75 yards or so, where error can lead to a disaster.

Back to the TSX, TTSX debate.
I have in my possession a 168 gr TTSX that looks like nothing happened to it except it has lost the plastic tip, and wears rifling grooves.
It was shot into an animal at 60+ yards from a 30-06.
The animal had to be shot a second time to anchor it.

This may be lot specific, but how do we know if we have a bad lot??
Makes one a bit leery, particularly if a longer shot is attempted.

However, I am using them in a couple of my firearms...we'll see.
Having personally shot over 100 head of game with the venerable Nosler Partition, I KNOW they work.

I do not subscribe to the lead issues, either.
I raised 4 children from birth to adulthood on game meat exclusively.
All were honor role/principal's list students at school.
So far, there is zero evidence of any harm to them from eating all that meat "contaminated" with lead!! lol.

Regards, Eagleye.

 

[Barnes_270]

Weak??? Yes for the one box a year shooter. I reload all my rounds so it would not be even close to the same price to develop a hunting load with no lead .
or worse I do shot gun @ 3.50 a box for lead target and 8.50 for steel. I won't be shooting much.
Anyway it is Ok for us to disagree be a boring site if not. Cheers
I just get my hackles up I guess when I hear guys going away from lead bullets on their own for what I think is the wrong reason i.e. lead contamination in wild game knowing the fight the nra just won a few months back to allow us to keep using it.

I reload too - the price comparison was between a box of 50 NP bullets and a box of 50 TTSX bullets (not cartridges). If we're talking TTSX vs NP for reloading, the price for the TTSX is less than for the NP. Now, if you want to talk about other lead bullets, you'd have a case, but not for the TTSX vs NP, which was the point of discussion of this thread. It's cheaper for me to shoot the TTSX than the NP.

 

[Barnes_270]

I do not subscribe to the lead issues, either.
I raised 4 children from birth to adulthood on game meat exclusively.
All were honor role/principal's list students at school.
So far, there is zero evidence of any harm to them from eating all that meat "contaminated" with lead!! lol.

Regards, Eagleye.

I agree that this is the experience of many folks. This does not make it valid from an epidemiological standpoint, however. The plural of "anecdote" is not "data".

Still, I'm all in favor of guys being allowed to use what they want to use. No problem there.

 

[captonion]

Besides, the TTSX has worked great for me, shoots very accurately, and everything so far has been DRT, in its tracks (which I can say certainly wasn't the case before with lead bullets for me, even with excellent shot placement). So, what's not to like?

So? How vast is your experience on big game with the TTSX Vs lead-core..

 

[3macs1]

So? How vast is your experience on big game with the TTSX Vs lead-core..

From his statement

I can say certainly wasn't the case before with lead bullets for me, even with excellent shot placement). So, what's not to like?

He has ZERO experience using partitions or a real poor shot

Have never seen a big game animal walk away from a well-placed Nosler Partition but have with a TTSX and with no blood trail. Many bear hunters are returning to their old proven partitions vs TTSX. Too much shooting in ballistic gel and paper for many guys and not enough in live game. Lets see introduced in 1948 and still the center of attention and the choice of many. That says it all. But like I keep saying to each their own Chuckie seems to like them also
http://www.chuckhawks.com/nosler_hunting_bullets.htm