So I tried my 'test' loads, now what do I do? (results)

[Furync]

Hi everyone,

for those who havent read my previous posts, I shoot a M700 in .308 and I am new to reloading. I use varget powder in remington brass, I push 180gr SST's and use CCI LR primers.

I had loaded 6 rounds of 41gr powder, 6 of 42gr and 6 of 43gr and then went out to the range. I shot all 18 shots at 3 different targets (6 each) so technically these are 6-shot groups.

Here are the results: 41gr ended up in roughly a 2 inch group with one major flyer. 43gr was a 2.5ish inch group. The interesting load was the 42gr load shown below:

5 of the 6 shots are well around the 1" mark and the 6th shot higher to the left.

My question is now what do I do? Obviously my gun prefers the 42gr of powder. Should I go ahead and load 100 or so of these and go hunting?

Should I even adjust my scope?

Comments/suggestions/anything please I'd love to have some feedback.

Thanks everyone

 

[imbane]

I may reload more test rounds to shoot, then decide. I think one group each doesn't really count?

 

[maynard]

So what will 42.2 grains do? How about 42.4 or 42.6 or 41.8 gr.
Start with your 42 gr load and go up by .2 gr. Once you settle on the charge your rifle likes, play with the seating deepth.
You might also want to try other bullets to see if it will group tighter. If the rifle will be used just for hunting, chances are you have a good enough load right there.
Should you move the scope? That's what those knobs on the top and side are for, but don't do it until you find the best load.
Until you can call every shot as a perfect shot disregard the flyer.

 

[Boomer]

What is it that you wish to accomplish? Is the piece a precision rig, or is it a hunting rifle? Do the rounds have to feed from a magazine or can you seat the bullet out to engage the rifling and single load? You can experiment with crimping if you use a bullet with a cannular, then determine if crimping is right for you based on your observations. If you are getting good groups with a hunting bullet from a hunting rifle, is there a benefit to continue the load development?

The process of making precision ammunition for a target rifle is nearly limitless. If you can measure it - it matters! You can begin to group cases and bullets by weight and run out. You can turn necks. You can uniform flash holes and primer pockets. Once your load development is complete you can experiment with neck tension by using a bushing die for resizing and switch bushings to see if your results improve with more or less neck tension. You can anneal the necks between firings to keep them soft. In almost all cases the measure is of the rifle and ammo and not so much of the shooter until you reach the competition stage. Experimenting is addictive, but do you want to spend your life at the loading bench or do you want to shoot?

If the piece is a hunting rifle, adjust your scope a half minute left and go do some shooting from field positions at unknown ranges in a variety of wind and temperature conditions. Practice range and wind estimation. Use targets that don't have specific aiming points, have irregular shapes, and use targets that fall over or audibly ping when hit. Keep good records of your performance. Your estimation of wind and range should be recorded. Each shot should be recorded.

When your rifle is shot at a bullseye target from the bench, that produces an accuracy baseline to use measure your performance when shooting from field positions. Your prone performance might be 95% of what you could do from the bench, but off hand is only 25%. When you shoot from off hand, or shoot kneeling, sitting and prone with the sling is when your shooting will improve. Bi-pods are interesting too, and I have them on a couple of rifles, but you should recognized the bi-pod as a crutch and you should not become overly dependent on one.

 

[Silverback]

That 42 gr load is more than accurate enough for hunting, I know it will shock many here but a 4" group at 100 yards is generally considered adequate for hunting at normal ranges. Normal ranges being less than 200 yards. I would load up a few more at 42 gr and fire some more groups to ensure that the load is consistent. Though this being the internet almost everybody's hunting rifle here shoots 0.5" groups or less on a bad day.

 

[Furync]

Boomer,

it's interesting that you write that because I'm a hunter, not a shooter. I honestly dont enjoy all that much going to the range and sitting on a bench and poking holes at paper at 100m. I'm quite happy with the group I pictured up top because it's much smaller than a deer's heart. I've used the factory stuff with a lot of success over the past 15 years but since I bought all the reloading stuff I dont really know how much testing is worth putting into it. I've got better results than the factory stuff I used for 15 years so I guess I should be happy with that

I guess what I'm really asking is what am I supposed to do since I found a load that seems to be to my satisfaction? The flyer is making me wonder and I dont know if I was just lucky with that group or it was really the way it shoots. Those with more experience than I would perhaps be able to tell if more ammo/testing is needed?


I have another quesiton, technical perhaps, out of the 40ish bullets I've reloaded since I got the equipment, I've had 5-6 bullets that were though to chamber. Most will go in very smoothly when I close the bolt and a few will require some physical force to close the bolt. Should I worry about this? 2 were pretty hard and I discarded those, the others were though but not so bad so I shot those. I use lee Full Lenght sizing dies (brand new) and all the brass was trimmed and individually measured. Is this normal?


Edit: Ha! Silverback you beat me to click the "post" button I have to say that I agree with you...

 

[308BAR]

Little bit of a verticle string there, have you had your rifle bedded yet?

 

[Furync]

Little bit of a verticle string there, have you had your rifle bedded yet?

I havent, my 700 is of the SPS kind... I wont bed it because of the craptastic plastic on it. When I run into some money I'll change the stock but with groups like this I'm in no hurry

 

[H4831]

For sure find out why some cartridges need pressure to chamber. A common cause is too vigorous of crimping, that causes a bulge by forcing the case back a bit.
I think at the start of your first thread, you said this group was at the starting load pressure. So, if you want an accurate rifle in the 30-30 class, just stop expirementing and go hunting.
However, if you want a 308 rifle you must go up to, or near, the maximums shown in the book, which afterall, is about the same as factory ammunition.

 

[Boomer]

As H4831 says, you must find the reason those rounds are hard to chamber, and if you are crimping enough to bulge the brass that might be the solution. The proper way to crimp with RCBS or Redding style dies is to run the ram up to the top of the stoke with a cartridge in the shell holder, then thread in the die until you feel it contact the cartridge. Turn in the die until it is tight then drop the ram, turn the die in another eighth of a turn and run the cartridge to be crimped back up. The cartridge should crimp easily or the die is set to far down. I crimp as a separate operation from seating the bullet, and I adjust for each round individually so I don't bother with the lock ring. What I do though is crimp, turn the case 180 degrees and crimp again to ensure an even crimp all the way around.

The Lee manual says to turn the die in from a half to a full turn, but I haven't used Lee full length dies in some time and don't recall the procedure for them. I do use the Lee Factory Crimp Die for my handgun cartridges, and they work very well. The Rifle factory crimp die might be an option for you.

If the crimping is not the issue there are a few other things to consider if you have trimmed your brass to the proper length. If your chamber is very tight you might have to turn necks, but that is normally only in the case of a custom target rifle purposely chambered tight, rather than a hunting rifle.

It could also be that you have not set up the full length sizing die properly, and it is not bumping the shoulder back. Ensure that there is firm contact between the shell holder and the die at the top of the stroke. Occasionally you will get a shell holder that is out of spec, and that can cause difficulty in cambering as well. Buying a second shell holder might be a cheap fix, but if the problem persists don't ignore it.

Edited to add . . .

You can't tell much from a single group. If you shoot 5 groups with similar results then you have developed a repeatable and predictable level of accuracy. I wouldn't get too concerned about the flier, it could be anything from a momentary lack of concentration to a significantly heavier case resulting in less volume and more pressure, to change in light on the target.

 

[crout]

Furync.
If this was my hunting rig I would
1. found out why some of the hand loads are hard to chamber
2. Shoot and record your groups at 200-300-400yards(if you think you might take longer shots.
3. Shoot my reloads in the same Temp that I will be hunting in.
4. Shoot, clean, shoot, clean, shoot, clean (remember your gun will be clean the first and every day of hunting season)
5. discard the 2" flyer. you probably just flinched or you shot five rounds quick, your barrel heated up and started to touch the stock (who knows)

But if you can hold a 3-4 inch group at 300yards you should be good to go.

 

[Furync]

I guess I'll be loading more of the 42 grainers shoot some more. To answer some questions:
1- I dont crimp. Could a bullet seater create a bulge somehow? I measured everything off the 2 rounds I kept that were hard to chamber and everything measures OK... I really dont know what to do with this problem.
2- The longest shot I ever took on a deer was about 80 yards (in 15 years of hunting) and I dont expect that to change so shooting beyond 100 yards is pretty useless to me.
3- My gun is always cleaned to perfection. I'm very meticulous.
4- All brass was trimmed using the LEE trimajiggie and were individualy measured and were all OK
5- The FL sizer goes all the way down to the shell holder and just "touches".
6- the 43gr load was starting to create a small crater on the primer so I figure I cant go much past that point.

Should I look at something else?

Thanks!

 

[cosmic]

Well - You may not have stroked the press lever fully for a few of your cases... Given your hunting persuasion, I think you've done more than 98% of hunters do, I'd be relatively content. Sometimes it takes a variety of bullet and powder trials to get the groups you have - consider yourself lucky!
Chances are the rifle is now being limited by operator skill - further tuning is going to require operator tuning as well! So practice your shooting - bet your groups will get smaller. One word of advice - dont make large batches - you'll find you get better at making ammo too. Also, if you are making hunting rounds, cycle all rounds through the action before hitting the woods!

 

[Boomer]

First off, turn your full length sizer in until you have firm contact with the shell holder. If there is a gap between the shell holder and the die when the ram is topped out with a case in the shell holder, it needs to be tighter, but no so tight that you spring your press. Ensure that the expander stem is not bottomed out on the head of the case.

Another trick is to mark the case neck with a magic marker or some machinists lay-up die, full length resize and see if the the entire neck is being resized. It might be easier to see this if the expander stem is removed from the die. If the neck is not resized right down to the junction of the shoulder, the die or shell holder is out of spec, and the shoulder is not being bumped back.

If this doesn't resolve the problem, you could take your rifle to a gunsmith to determine if the chamber is on the tight side with a go/no go gauge. If nothing else works you could have the shell holder machined down.

Cosmic is right on with the advice to run each round through the rifle before going afield. A round that doesn't chamber at the range is a nuisance, but one that ties up the rifle in the field is much more inconvenient.

Trying to determine pressure based of primer appearance requires much experience, and a cratered primer in itself doesn't mean much. If you can shoot across a chronograph (they are pretty cheap now) when you get close to the book velocity it's time to quit regardless of your load. This makes a certain amount of sense because regardless of the brass or load they used when getting the data for a specific bullet, it took a certain amount of pressure to achieve a given velocity. If they determined that a load of powder X with bullet Y produced the maximum pressure at such and such a velocity, chances are that you have reached the maximum safe pressure at the same velocity using the same bullet and powder. Your specific powder load might be more or less than the book load however due to the differences in the internal dimensions of your rifle from the test rifle.

As you gain experience in the use the chronograph, when you work up loads by regular increments of powder, as you get close to the maximum pressure you should notice that the increase in velocity plateaus. For example the last few rounds have regularly increased by 80 fps, but now the increase is only 20 fps, chances are the next increase will result in a sticky bolt. I would consider the round previous to the round that plateaued to be the maximum load for that combination of case, powder, primer, and bullet. From the point of maximum pressure you can work downwards to determine the most accurate load.