So my Winchester US Model of 1917...
- Thread starter davemccarthy707
- Start date
There were approx 2.5 million M1917 Enfields built, of which Winchester made some 545,000, so this is by no means a rare rifle. Remington made slightly more and Eddystone made the majority.
The M1917s did not bear any type of star marking (*), but the P14 Enfields did. This * marking on the P14 indicated a different bolt and barrel. There was some lack of full parts interchangeability between the 3 makers of the P14, but all M1917 parts produced by these same makers are totally interchangeable.
Both the P14 and M1917 were well made and were rugged and reliable infantry weapons. Many would argue that they were superior to both the No1 MKIII Lee Enfield and the M1903 Springfield which they supplemented during WW1.
The M1917s did not bear any type of star marking (*), but the P14 Enfields did. This * marking on the P14 indicated a different bolt and barrel. There was some lack of full parts interchangeability between the 3 makers of the P14, but all M1917 parts produced by these same makers are totally interchangeable.
Both the P14 and M1917 were well made and were rugged and reliable infantry weapons. Many would argue that they were superior to both the No1 MKIII Lee Enfield and the M1903 Springfield which they supplemented during WW1.
My Winchester P14 was made in 1917 and has the "star" marking but from what I read this means one of the bolt locking lugs is longer than the other (I think it is the one that the extractor sits on top).
Would you be able to show us a picture of the star ? I know that Winchester, Remington, and Eddystone switched over production to the U.S. Model of 1917 relatively quickly after having finished the P14 contracts. I think it is safe to say the same stampings may have gone with them. How about the locking lugs on your bolt, are either of them different lengths ?
Purple you are right, the P14 is extremely well made. I look forward to getting a hold of a U.S. model of 1917 in the near future.
Would you be able to show us a picture of the star ? I know that Winchester, Remington, and Eddystone switched over production to the U.S. Model of 1917 relatively quickly after having finished the P14 contracts. I think it is safe to say the same stampings may have gone with them. How about the locking lugs on your bolt, are either of them different lengths ?
Purple you are right, the P14 is extremely well made. I look forward to getting a hold of a U.S. model of 1917 in the near future.
I recommend 2 very good books covering all aspects of P1914/M1917 Enfield history, production, parts and markings that would be useful for any P14/M1917 owner;
Pattern 1914 and US Model of 1917 by Charles R. Stratton, and
The US Enfield by Skennerton
Pattern 1914 and US Model of 1917 by Charles R. Stratton, and
The US Enfield by Skennerton
I found the information on the Lee Enfield rifle website on the page relating to the Pattern 1914. I went and checked my P14's bolt and saw what had been described so I assume its true.
Here is a picture of both locking lugs on my P14's bolt, am I right in assuming this is what the star marking means ? If so, perhaps that might explain the star marking on dave's US model of 1917.
Does anyone have an early P14 that is non-star marked ?
This is one of the first batch of 10,000 that was "rejected" so to speak. For front line duty. My bolt lugs also looks like this. This is the rifle I started another thread about the DP mark on the bolt handle (which according to the email I have from CS Ferris himself indicates that this rifle is not to be used for .303 ammo. The DP has nothing to do with serviceability.) Anyways in this article it explains the first batch. http://www.odcmp.org/503/rifle.pdf
From the article "a specimen of the original 10,000
Winchesters is an extremely valuable collector’s item"
Here is the email from Ferris
The Model 1917 rifle has always been noted for its accuracy and for its
> strength. The receivers were made of 3.5% nickel in the steel. The low
> serial number means nothing as far as safety is concerned.
> The circled star has nothing to do with safety. There was some
> correspondence that suggests it designated rifles made prior to the point
> where sufficient interchangeability of parts was achieved. The
> consequence of insufficient interchangeability was that such rifles not
> be sent to the war in France. They were not rejected, but if they had
> been it would not be because they were unsafe. The NS on the bolt stands
> for Nickel Steel. DP on the rifle stands for Drill Purpose. This is only
> on guns sent to Britain where there could be the possibility of getting
> .303 ammo in them instead of the .30-'06 ammo. So they were used for
> drill purposes, largely by the Home Guard.
> I hope this settles your doubts. Your purchaser seems misinformed. Of
> course, you can have a gunsmith check it out for cracks, barrel
> obstructions or swelling, etc.
>
> Nick Ferris
From the article "a specimen of the original 10,000
Winchesters is an extremely valuable collector’s item"
Here is the email from Ferris
The Model 1917 rifle has always been noted for its accuracy and for its
> strength. The receivers were made of 3.5% nickel in the steel. The low
> serial number means nothing as far as safety is concerned.
> The circled star has nothing to do with safety. There was some
> correspondence that suggests it designated rifles made prior to the point
> where sufficient interchangeability of parts was achieved. The
> consequence of insufficient interchangeability was that such rifles not
> be sent to the war in France. They were not rejected, but if they had
> been it would not be because they were unsafe. The NS on the bolt stands
> for Nickel Steel. DP on the rifle stands for Drill Purpose. This is only
> on guns sent to Britain where there could be the possibility of getting
> .303 ammo in them instead of the .30-'06 ammo. So they were used for
> drill purposes, largely by the Home Guard.
> I hope this settles your doubts. Your purchaser seems misinformed. Of
> course, you can have a gunsmith check it out for cracks, barrel
> obstructions or swelling, etc.
>
> Nick Ferris
Thats exactly what is on my P14, thanks for confirming, purple.
I am, however, interested to see if Model 1917s have this feature or if it is P14 related only.
My Model of 1917 is like this as well.
To clarify; the left locking lug on ALL P14 and M1917 bolts is longer than the right one. The difference between the P14 (properly called Pattern 1914 MkI) and P14* (properly called Pattern 1914 MkI*) is that the left locking lug on the P14* bolt was made longer than it originally was on the P14 bolt.
If you pull the bolt on your M1917 you will see that, other than for the extractor cuttout, the breech end of the barrel is of a uniform cone shape to facilitate feeding of the .30-06 round. This is similar to the design of the M1903 Springfield.
Here's another bit of arcane info; the M1917 Enfield magazine spring and follower are interchangeable with those in the M1903 Springfield.
If you pull the bolt on your M1917 you will see that, other than for the extractor cuttout, the breech end of the barrel is of a uniform cone shape to facilitate feeding of the .30-06 round. This is similar to the design of the M1903 Springfield.
Here's another bit of arcane info; the M1917 Enfield magazine spring and follower are interchangeable with those in the M1903 Springfield.
Here's another bit of arcane info; the M1917 Enfield magazine spring and follower are interchangeable with those in the M1903 Springfield.
This I did not know. I assumed the Pattern 1914 magazines and followers were modified in design to accept the 30-06 cartridge for the Model 1917.
This is getting more "cornfusing"
You mention that your rifle is s/n 121XX, which would make it higher than the first 10,000 M1917s produced by Winchester, which were supposedly rejected because of interchangeability issues. If s/n 10,000 s/n and higher rifles are supposedly made with totally interchangeable components, yours should be in this category.The Skennerton book does describe some minor interchangeability issues with initial production Winchesters because Winchester had initiated M1917 production before the M1917 specifications were finalized while Remington and Eddystone had not. No s/n range is specified.
It would be interesting to see a close-up of the * marking on your receiver. AFAIK this marking was not adopted or applied in US service, nor was the DP (drill purpose) stamp. The DP stamp was a British marking which indicated that the rifle or components thereof were not suitable for live fire and were restricted for drill/practice only. During WW2 large numbers of M1917s, as well as some M1 Garands and M1903 Springfields, were supplied to the British on lend lease. In order to avert confusion over using the standard British .303 round in these .30-06 caliber rifles, the British applied red paint around the forends and marked some of these lend lease rifles for .30 caliber. They were not stamped "DP" if infact they were a servicable rifle.
This is getting more "cornfusing"
The Skennerton book does describe some minor interchangeability issues with initial production Winchesters because Winchester had initiated M1917 production before the M1917 specifications were finalized while Remington and Eddystone had not. No s/n range is specified.
It would be interesting to see a close-up of the * marking on your receiver. AFAIK this marking was not adopted or applied in US service, nor was the DP (drill purpose) stamp. The DP stamp was a British marking which indicated that the rifle or components thereof were not suitable for live fire and were restricted for drill/practice only. During WW2 large numbers of M1917s, as well as some M1 Garands and M1903 Springfields, were supplied to the British on lend lease. In order to avert confusion over using the standard British .303 round in these .30-06 caliber rifles, the British applied red paint around the forends and marked some of these lend lease rifles for .30 caliber. They were not stamped "DP" if infact they were a servicable rifle.
Here is the serial number decoder
http://oldguns.net/sn_php/mildateslookup.php?file=us_m1917wra.dat
http://www.usmilitariaforum.com/forums/lofiversion/index.php/t52140.html
Now that's a star, not the * mark that the Brits used! I thought you were describing the Brit style star (*). OK, I'm buying it as a non-interchangeability mark that was only applied to early production Winchester M1917s.
A lot of M1917s, especially the Danish surplus ones, had many of the parts swapped out in service so they will contain a jumble of W,R, and E marked parts. This rifle looks to be in very good shape and quite original. Any R or E marked parts?
A M1917 in nice condition can run up to $600 or so. A dedicated M1917 freak might pay a bit of a premium because of the low s/n.
A lot of M1917s, especially the Danish surplus ones, had many of the parts swapped out in service so they will contain a jumble of W,R, and E marked parts. This rifle looks to be in very good shape and quite original. Any R or E marked parts?
A M1917 in nice condition can run up to $600 or so. A dedicated M1917 freak might pay a bit of a premium because of the low s/n.
It's a real mixmaster. Remington stock. Eddystone barrel. Winchester action and bolt (all bolt parts are W). I love it, as it's a piece of history.
