So what does everybody think about the new ISPC classifications?
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It's a sport .... people are competitive..... you can have both but fun alone only motivates so far.Quigley said:Are you suggesting that the only value to an IPSC match is Classifiction? I feel sorry for anyone that thinks this way.
What about fun...what about overall poistion.
In just about every other sport in the world...people do what they have to do to get a class / designation...so they can go out and have fun...
Some people seem to do the opposite for IPSC...shoot only for class....don't shoot the match if it's not a classifier...match wins mean nothing if it's not a classifier...sound like fun eh
I won't take a day off work to travel 3.5 hrs just to find out a match that I just paid 20 - 100.00 plus gas was just for fun. I have my local weekly club matches for "just for fun". If I'm going to invest serious cash on weekly, monthly basis I would like it to be both.
I don't agree with our system in place now but it looks like it's going to stay. I would support it more if the subjective aspect is gone. I may not like how it's calculated but I won't travel any great distances unless I know it will be a classifier.... I know I'll have fun at a match I always do .... But that will stop if I keep spending money to travel just to find out that it didn't count.
I guess you'll just feel sorry for me....
I agree with Max, yes its fun, but we shoot also for the classification. If Classification wasn't such a big deal and we all shot for fun then you wouldn't be having such a fit about the soft classifiers.
To think that for the match to be a qualifier the GM has to shoot perfect is just plain unrealistic. As awesome as Omen is, hes going to make mistakes and thats what lets the rest of us catch up. Your just creating an unrealistic standard thats just going to tick everyone off. Honestly with 25 people there is not a whole lot that can be said about it not being a qualifer.
If you look the placings for the match they are the same as they always are. The kicker was that it was a difficult course and thus you had a greater difference in overall percentage and more chances for the GM to mess up.
Until Dave Sevigney or Jesus himself decide to shoot the match were going to run into issues with the new system and your going to make people angry and leave.
I still have yet to figure out why we don't have a free vote, we're the ones who are shooting, why don't we get our say. Its like the board which is mostly older ipsc shooters gets to decide which way our sport is going. Right now we only have 16 Masters in Production division and 40 in Standard, I don't see this as way out of line, we rarely have enough in production to make an old fashion classifier. I know for me personally I have been to many many level 2's that had 15 or more people but because there was only 1 master it wasn't a qualifier; even though it was Damian or Jameson or whomever. I don't think my score of 81% has changed in 8 months because the matches are never qualifers, if they were I would have been a master over a year ago. Theres more of a problem there than being too many...
I dont know Craig, I just think your a little out of touch with the people... not unlike everyone else in Ottawa...
To think that for the match to be a qualifier the GM has to shoot perfect is just plain unrealistic. As awesome as Omen is, hes going to make mistakes and thats what lets the rest of us catch up. Your just creating an unrealistic standard thats just going to tick everyone off. Honestly with 25 people there is not a whole lot that can be said about it not being a qualifer.
If you look the placings for the match they are the same as they always are. The kicker was that it was a difficult course and thus you had a greater difference in overall percentage and more chances for the GM to mess up.
Until Dave Sevigney or Jesus himself decide to shoot the match were going to run into issues with the new system and your going to make people angry and leave.
I still have yet to figure out why we don't have a free vote, we're the ones who are shooting, why don't we get our say. Its like the board which is mostly older ipsc shooters gets to decide which way our sport is going. Right now we only have 16 Masters in Production division and 40 in Standard, I don't see this as way out of line, we rarely have enough in production to make an old fashion classifier. I know for me personally I have been to many many level 2's that had 15 or more people but because there was only 1 master it wasn't a qualifier; even though it was Damian or Jameson or whomever. I don't think my score of 81% has changed in 8 months because the matches are never qualifers, if they were I would have been a master over a year ago. Theres more of a problem there than being too many...
I dont know Craig, I just think your a little out of touch with the people... not unlike everyone else in Ottawa...
maxpig said:
There is no subjective aspect. Using a set calculation and applying it regardless...is objective (ie predictable and repeatable)
Relying on the match winner to tell you if they had a good match or not...and using that to determine classifiers...that's subjective...
redberet said:
Really...
That would mean I:
Don't shoot matches
Don't consult with the Board (that the members elected)
Don't consult with the IPSC reps (that the members elected)
Don't consult or accosicate with the members
Am genarlly unapproachable
All this proves is you don't know me...
method of determining may be objective.... % of score... but reason why is was determined a classifier or not is quite subjective.... Oh crap I missed a bank of targets guess it's not a classifier, gun jammed up... I went too fast ... I gamed to try and catch up but it didn't pan out.... sorry all not a classifier.... Just imagine if in every sport the favorite who lost says it doesn't count cause they pulled a hammy... no one would compete...
maxpig said:
If your % at a match goes up by 10% because someones gun jammed or they were sick that day (you didn't score any more points...they just scored less)......do you actually think your Class % should go up?
Who are we trying to kid
Quigley said:
glass half full or half empty...I really don't think I should go up incases like that... I was overclass 4 sure... but let me tell you when I did score 70% or better ( very rare) I was motivated to practice more and to try even harder to maintain it.
we now have a floating system don't we?? I wouldn't be able to sustain any major increases if it was because The top shooter shot poorly and it will be reflected by my results....2-80% and 8-65% matches would keep me in the 68% area if we do a simple straight average over 10 matches..... why try to manually do what a floating system is designed to do.... keep everyone at their level while promoting a shooter as their skill increases. the redundancy is just going to frustrate more and more shooters.
the new system is new and far from perfect you really shouldn't take our comment personally..... I believe if you keep an open mind and are willing to accept some things will be a problem and address them members will see this and be more forgiving.
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maxpig said:
We don't have a floating system that uses your best x number of matches of a previous 10. It's just too labour intensive to maintain.
It is floating in that your Class can move up or down...2 times per year when the Classifications will be updated.
We're monitoring the results...and we're not trying to make extra work for ourselves...if it's clear that it's not working...we'll have another look at it. But...so far in my opinion...it's working
I did a quick check based on the Level 2's so far this year and the only 2 that would be effected are:
Wentworth - Production (match winner shot in the 60's on two short/med and in the 80's on the long course)
EESA - Standard (match winner zeroed a stage and had a bit of a hiccup on another)
These should not be used to calculate (ie inflate) everyone elses class. If we allow these matches to count...we have enough of them in Ontario that all you have to do is hit 3 of them and you'll get bumped up. That's what has happened...and it creates soft GM's and soft M's...
The results are exagerated on low round count matches (typical of the winter indoor schedule) I would expect it to be more rare in the summer when the round count is 120 and bad stages have less of an overall effect
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Quigley said:Really...
That would mean I:
Don't shoot matches
Don't consult with the Board (that the members elected)
Don't consult with the IPSC reps (that the members elected)
Don't consult or accosicate with the members
Am genarlly unapproachable
All this proves is you don't know me...
Umm the fact that you go on this board and yell at the members telling them what they should think and what is best for them means you don't know whats going on.
I still cannot believe your attitude towards the members... You yell at them and tell them to help like you did to PMT who helps out every week. Earlier you yelled at Colt1911 because he said you should get people to patch, even though he helped bring in the press when the gun ban almost happened, and you yell at Omen and other people in this thread for questioning you.
Do you see a pattern here? You are out of control and all you are doing is weakening our sport, its insane. Be friendly, it won't kill you, even if you think we're all retards at least learn to suffer fools gladly, that way when I need voter support to keep my guns its still there...
You honestly need to stop and listen to some feedback, it will make our sport better, but instead you just abuse the members to get your way. We aren't all backwoods, redneck, farming, Skoal chewing, retards that have to be told what to do. Your members are Doctors, lawyers, engineers, and one really friendly dentist (who is one of the sole reasons I still shoot IPSC).
Honestly make a vote and see what happens... if the new system is voted in again then we have nothing to complain about, but the fact that people are complaining must tell you the new system isn't well received. However no one in IPSC goes wait a minute, we have a lot of ticked off people, how do we fix this?
And on your last note, your other comment about it being based on skill... Why should Omen be held up on a pedestal even when he makes mistakes, if you screw up people get higher percentages.
Essentially what your saying is Damian is infalliable and he has to be for the system to work, but since he is falliable the system stop working and nothing goes forward when he messes up. This isn't a good system...
Last time I checked people made mistakes and thats how you eventually beat them, or is that not the idea... I guess the idea is to make the GMs the best and not let other people into the slots... You realize this whole fubar situation is over 15 and ONLY 15 Masters in production division
Don't forget you still haven't commented on the fact that there aren't enough production Masters right now and hardly anything is a qualifier, but I can just assume that since you've ignored everyone else's concerns this one will get tossed out as well...
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redberet said:
In no particular order...
I haven't "yelled" at anyone. I have a right to my opinion, same as you. If Damian and PMT have an issue with anything I've posted...they're big boys and they can let me know.
Regarding "Production Classifiers"...there were more Classifiers in prod last year than there were in Open...so I don't buy your argument...
Regarding the rest...nothing gets changed without approval from the Board of Directors...it's not a one person show. In this case we also asked for votes from the Club Reps. I'm happy to take the heat if it makes you feel any better.
As far as complaining...we have 1,000 members...not very many of them are complaining.
I threw in a big happy face so you won't think I'm yelling
redberet said:
So this got me curious...
I assume it was regarding this thread?
http://www.canadiangunnutz.com/forum/showthread.php?t=88589
I'd appretiate if you could point out when I "yelled" at him. We may not have seen eye to eye on the subject...but I would hardly say I yelled...(although he did acuse me of giving him attitude) I gave my opinion...so did a bunch other members...we're all entitled to our opinions
I appretiate you sticking up for your dad...but again...I think he's big enough to do it on his own.
You obvioulsy have a personal issue with me. Feel free to give ne a call if you really want to debate this...but enough is enough
Uhhmm... geeze.... everyone, play nice...
The only time Quigley and I yell at each other is to yell "STOP" after the other fires a shot into the ground, 12 inches away from his foot....
I can get into a 'screaming-like' disagreement with someone over some point, but that doesn't flow over into anything personal, it's just that point I'm disagreeing with... Nothing more, nothing less... Not taking it personally... Even if the language of some posts is brisk and to the point, it's just an indication of frustration of what *I* perceive as silly/illogical/whatever (in general, not about this issue in particular).
I'm already bored talking about THIS topic, everyone has said their piece, let's move on... Nothing will change now, we'll revisit this after few matches.
The only time Quigley and I yell at each other is to yell "STOP" after the other fires a shot into the ground, 12 inches away from his foot....
I can get into a 'screaming-like' disagreement with someone over some point, but that doesn't flow over into anything personal, it's just that point I'm disagreeing with... Nothing more, nothing less... Not taking it personally... Even if the language of some posts is brisk and to the point, it's just an indication of frustration of what *I* perceive as silly/illogical/whatever (in general, not about this issue in particular).
I'm already bored talking about THIS topic, everyone has said their piece, let's move on... Nothing will change now, we'll revisit this after few matches.
Did anyone notice that this is called the INTERNATIONAL Practical Shooting Confederation. We have INTERNATIONAL RULES & CLASSIFICATIONS (ie rankings). This sounds like tennis, golf or any other competitive INTERNATIONAL sport.
If you want to start a new organization and call it the ONTARIO Practical Shooting Association, go ahead. Then, everyone can be a Grand Master and tell all their freinds. It doesn't mean that they will perform any better than an IPSC or USPSA GM, but they will feel good about themselves.
Anyone on this CGN forum remember CPSA. That disappeared too!
Those of us who have competed for 10 or more years at the World's, European Championships, US Championships, etc, KNOW what the world skill standards are and generally believe you improve (and want to improve) by shooting with and against the best shooters in your Region or the World.
Those of you who never will leave the mothership, that's fine. Enjoy the sport at your own level with whatever classification you want to call yourself. This is first and foremost a HOBBY. Enjoy it or take up something else.
Anyone who believes that everything should be decided by majority vote referendum should move to Quebec and join the PQ. We elect a Board of Directors who deliberate on our behalf and make decisions based on what they believe is best for the sport here in Kanada. They also take into consideration that this is INTERNATIONAL, not Canadian.
Has this topic been completely exhausted yet????
If you want to start a new organization and call it the ONTARIO Practical Shooting Association, go ahead. Then, everyone can be a Grand Master and tell all their freinds. It doesn't mean that they will perform any better than an IPSC or USPSA GM, but they will feel good about themselves.
Anyone on this CGN forum remember CPSA. That disappeared too!
Those of us who have competed for 10 or more years at the World's, European Championships, US Championships, etc, KNOW what the world skill standards are and generally believe you improve (and want to improve) by shooting with and against the best shooters in your Region or the World.
Those of you who never will leave the mothership, that's fine. Enjoy the sport at your own level with whatever classification you want to call yourself. This is first and foremost a HOBBY. Enjoy it or take up something else.
Anyone who believes that everything should be decided by majority vote referendum should move to Quebec and join the PQ. We elect a Board of Directors who deliberate on our behalf and make decisions based on what they believe is best for the sport here in Kanada. They also take into consideration that this is INTERNATIONAL, not Canadian.
Has this topic been completely exhausted yet????
stormbringer
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redberet said:
No not really.
BUT!
You should safely assume that with the ATTITUDE you have shown in every post in this thread. Many people will ignore any further posts you make on this or any other subject for that matter.
redberet said:
Let me start off by saying. I think this is the worst system we could have come up with. I believe this is a bull $hit classification system that will not work outside Toronto and Ottawa area's.
That being said. This is the system we have and WE voted on.
You come on here and bash Quigley , you state that he yells , abuses ignores members if IPSC Ontario on the forum. Show me were he has yelled or abused some one.
I have a question or two for you redberet.
What are you doing to help fix the problem with the classification system besides coming on here and bashing the the people that are trying to fix the problem? ( pretty easy to bash the people that are out there doing some thing )
If you club rep did not call a meeting with all the IPSC members in your club about this vote. Then maybe you should have a word with your club rep. He/she is the one you should be yelling at.
You do not think that 15 Masters is not enough in production? How many are real masters and not bull $hit Masters? Maybe 5.
It is people like you that have helped me decide to leave IPSC. You do not get your way so lets have another vote and another vote till you get what you want.
