so what with all the cheap ar15,s

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mlehtovaara said:
:eek:

BAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!

I totally missed this Gem of information!

Your on here ripping people for shooting Norcs, and you own an UPGRADED BUSHMASTER? :jerkit:

I would buy a Norc over a Bushmaster any day of the week!

My Carbon 15 disintegrated in my hands, and it was a 9mm! :eek: I ended up getting it replaced(after Bushmaster admitted fault) with a Rem R15 which was 10 x's the gun, and still a cheaper product then that Carbon 15.

Interestingly enough the 2 Norc's I owned never gave me any issues.
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That is my whole point right there, for the price of buying a bushmaster if it were available at the time I would have just bought a better AR that is made completely to MIl-spec or as close as you can get it!

{I would buy a Norc over a Bushmaster any day of the week!} When I purchased my shrubmaster at the time it was well made and did seem to follow most of the TDP, later version I noticed at the shop I would have passed on, I picked that up in late 2002to early 2003. I learned from my mistake...But not many AR's were available at the time.
 
I don't really care about the money people spend. I am mainly interested in performance. The only time I would knock someone for buying a cheap gun is if they then try to explain to me how their cheap gun is exactly the same as my expensive gun. That's usually a good sign that the conversation is not worth having...although not always. There are times when a cheap gun will outperform an expensive gun. Case in point: Gen 3 Glock 17 vs. Beretta PX4. Money is not necessarily an indicator of performance, although there tends to be a correlation. But that correlation is not remotely 1:1 - especially in Canada where there are random price premiums on some brands for reasons probably related to supply and ITAR.

If others want Norinco ARs I definitely have nothing against that. As a matter of fact I've often been interested in doing a very careful assessment of a Norinco AR and comparing it to an Armalite, say. I have had pretty good performance out of Norinco 1911s and M14s PROVIDED I get the chance to go through the gun and do all the QC stuff Pin Wang and Co did not do back in China.

Getting back to the OP, I would tend to disagree that range use only makes for a greater need for high end stuff. If you're only going to bet a piece of paper on the outcome, a Norinco or a Noveske won't matter much in the grand scheme of things. It's down to what you can, or will, spend on a hobby at that point.

If you are going to bet your life on your gun, then things are pretty different. But so few of us are in that situation that I don't remotely blame guys for buying cheap guns. I only start to comment if they then infer that, since they bought the gun, it must be awesome, and since from their perspective, they're more awesome than everyone else, their gun must be more awesome than everyone else's gun. Any criticism of their gun of choice is a criticism of their choice, and therefore their ability to choose.

I think it is stupid to get emotionally tied to your guns, but many, many, many people do. It is exactly the same phenomenon as the idiots who identify with Fords, or Chevrolets, or Macs, or Yamahas, or Harley Davidsons, or any other inanimate object. It seems to be a fundamental quirk of human nature and while you can suppress it in yourself, you can't suppress it in others. You can just buy guns, and hope that it will one day be legal to shoot anyone with a sticker in their truck window of Calvin, pissing on something.

At any rate I am interested solely in performance and will use any gun that works effectively for the purpose to which I intend to apply it.
 
Leibermuster said:
Because you have a lower IQ population entering the firearms community, they want instant satisfaction out of the gates and don't want to pay for it.

I would never buy a Norinco, I'm sorry but there garbage, the ones I have seen would not hold up and are not all in consistent spec from one Norc to another Norc. If that is all you can afford then I understand, but most people I have seen should have just saved for the decent AR like a bushmaster for example, or the prices at Questar in regards to LMT's are perfect. Most people I have seen rather buy a tone of guns and they did or won't cut down on there booze or cigarettes intake. I thought about getting a s**tty AR like a Norc for taking guest to the range, and decided against it. Forget that liability, the thing might explode in my hands.

As for people that are putting Airsoft parts on there AR's????? this just shows a total lack of responsibilities and retardation at the tenth degree.d:h:

I have herd of people selling there Roni kits and buying airsoft ones for there glocks, then using them and having them fail and blaming it on the installer or purchaser."saying it had that catastrophic failure because you never installed it properly" WTF Talk about retarded, you never installed a replica toy properly on your Glock and you think that was the first problem...give me a break...The reasoning of well it's a toy that was never built to withstand the pressure or heat tranfer to cheap plastic of firing live rds doesn't enter there minds, the only thing that does, is well "Why is it not working", talk about stupidity.

This type of personality or attitude is scrapping the bottom of the barrel in my humble opinion, and people like this could very easily give the anti-gun crowd some much needed ammo.

We have to attract smart, intelligent/responsible, and people of good character. Not the Village idiot, because that is a total recipe for disasters.
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You best not show up at a range and expose your CGN handle... I would worry for your health and safety. You have just insulted thousands of good people with this ignorant piece of trash you wrote. I suggest you crawl under a rock. Stop trying to fix this mess, it is broken beyond repair.
 
Leibermuster said:
My point is the Black rifle community is now growing and we have a large amount irresponsible people coming into the community, that is not a stretch of imagination, but a reality.
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So let me get this straight, because the black rifle community is growing we have a large amount of irresponsible people coming into the community? This is the kind of logic we hear from antis. While it may be your experience, I believe it is far from the "reality" of the black rifle community at large. I think this thread is proof that douches have been involved with black rifles since at least late 2002, early 2003;)
 
Bolivar said:
There is truth in anything you have said on this thread? I missed it. All I read from you was snobbish, elitist crap about ARs and the fact you want to limit peoples participation in Black Rifle shooting.
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You know what, give it a few years and you will see where I'm coming from...

You guys just want to make this a rich vs poor crap...have fun but it ain't...

If you are in the crowd that thinks your Norc will run as good and as safe as a properly to spec AR you are kidding your self.

You bought 3 AR's right, well you could have bought 1 quality AR right of the bat, or that may have been someone else...but my point still stands...

I have no problem with bringing more people into the Black-rifle community Rich & poor and I have, can you say the same = I doubt it..

Most people that are buying there Norc buy it out of ignorance and end up spending more, my point is if you want to use it like a "Super ninja" on a tac course and run a lot of ammo or use it for real world application, then get a proper AR. I don't like being heckled by the NORC crowd on the range all the time telling me there NORC is just as good because CGN told them it is, so my post are doing the would be reader a favor. If you plan on putting upwards of 5000rds + a year through your AR a year like me or many other shooters, you might want to think different.The NORC is god crap has to go, it's misleading, and it does seem to come from this crowd.

If that is all you can afford..well good for you...enjoy the NORC its fine for a little range time but it is not a serious AR.
 
Leibermuster said:
Most people that are buying there Norc buy it out of ignorance and end up spending more, my point is if you want to use it like a "Super ninja" on a tac course and run a lot of ammo or use it for real world application, then get a proper AR. I don't like being heckled by the NORC crowd on the range all the time telling me there NORC is just as good because CGN told them it is, so my post are doing the would be reader a favor. If you plan on putting upwards of 5000rds + a year through your AR a year like me or many other shooters, you might want to think different.The NORC is god crap has to go, it's misleading, and it does seem to come from this crowd.

If that is all you can afford..well good for you...enjoy the NORC its fine for a little range time but it is not a serious AR.
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Thanks for your opinion.

I am sure those "ignorant", "poor", "uneducated", "criminal", "wrong type of people", newbies reading this will take your advice. :jerkit:

The credibility you have gained in this thread will help them make their decision I am sure! ;)
 
To the original question, the answer is: Priorities. If anyone needs that explained, then you've never had to prioritize, and won't understand anyways.

To the full on no holds barred expounder of Stupid mixed with an unhealthy dose of Elitism...stop posting. Seriously, just stop. I'll even say "please". Even though I've already hit the Ignore button, your posts still get quoted and I feel compelled to read them just to see just how far down you can actually dig that hole.
 
misanthropist said:
I don't really care about the money people spend. I am mainly interested in performance. The only time I would knock someone for buying a cheap gun is if they then try to explain to me how their cheap gun is exactly the same as my expensive gun. That's usually a good sign that the conversation is not worth having...although not always. There are times when a cheap gun will outperform an expensive gun. Case in point: Gen 3 Glock 17 vs. Beretta PX4. Money is not necessarily an indicator of performance, although there tends to be a correlation. But that correlation is not remotely 1:1 - especially in Canada where there are random price premiums on some brands for reasons probably related to supply and ITAR.

If others want Norinco ARs I definitely have nothing against that. As a matter of fact I've often been interested in doing a very careful assessment of a Norinco AR and comparing it to an Armalite, say. I have had pretty good performance out of Norinco 1911s and M14s PROVIDED I get the chance to go through the gun and do all the QC stuff Pin Wang and Co did not do back in China.

Getting back to the OP, I would tend to disagree that range use only makes for a greater need for high end stuff. If you're only going to bet a piece of paper on the outcome, a Norinco or a Noveske won't matter much in the grand scheme of things. It's down to what you can, or will, spend on a hobby at that point.

If you are going to bet your life on your gun, then things are pretty different. But so few of us are in that situation that I don't remotely blame guys for buying cheap guns. I only start to comment if they then infer that, since they bought the gun, it must be awesome, and since from their perspective, they're more awesome than everyone else, their gun must be more awesome than everyone else's gun. Any criticism of their gun of choice is a criticism of their choice, and therefore their ability to choose.

I think it is stupid to get emotionally tied to your guns, but many, many, many people do. It is exactly the same phenomenon as the idiots who identify with Fords, or Chevrolets, or Macs, or Yamahas, or Harley Davidsons, or any other inanimate object. It seems to be a fundamental quirk of human nature and while you can suppress it in yourself, you can't suppress it in others. You can just buy guns, and hope that it will one day be legal to shoot anyone with a sticker in their truck window of Calvin, pissing on something.

At any rate I am interested solely in performance and will use any gun that works effectively for the purpose to which I intend to apply it.
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I think you have summed it up very nicely.

After reading through this thread what really stood out for me is that there seems to be a tendency to associate the word "cheap" with the idea that it means poor quality. It should NOT.

Cheap is a relative term... it only has meaning as it relates to the price of something else you compare it to. A $700 rifle is NOT "cheap" in relation to a $5.99 happy meal... but it is "cheaper" than a $1,500 rifle. Cheap should simply refer to the price of an item as it compares to it's competitors and it should in no way automatically mean that the item is of poor quality... though there definitely seems to be that implication for many.

It may well be that SOMETIMES a "cheap" item is also of poor quality but that is NOT always the case... in fact sometimes an expensive item can be of poor quality... price does NOT necessarily equate to quality.

I have never owned or fired the NEA rifles but from what I've read there is absolutely NOTHING WRONG with the quality of their product. The CORE15 product is excellent quality product from what I've seen and we looked very closely at it during the SHOT show. Poor quality can come from all parts of the market and at all price ranges... every product needs to be judged on it's actual merits and not on it's price point.

I haven't owned any Norinco AR's but I do NOT put them down... in fact when it was first announced (years ago) that there was a Chinese AR-15 coming that was going to sell for $600 to $700 I was excited... because I knew that it would open the AR market to hundreds if not thousands of new AR buyers who could afford a $600 gun but who couldn't afford a $1,500 to $2,000 AR (which is where prices were back then). The Norinco AR's may have been the best thing to happen to our market... and our business. In fact they prove that a cheap price does NOT have to mean poor quality.

People make purchase decisions for many different reasons... price is always a factor but so is "name", quality, features, options, etc.. If all that mattered was price then everyone would be driving the same car and it would be the cheapest car in the marketplace. Last time I looked there were a lot of different cars being made, with infinite options, colours, designs and price ranges... the "cheap" ones may not be the same as the expensive ones, but that not mean that the "cheap" ones are poor in quality... firearms are no different.

Instead of "cheap" why not use the words "less expensive". Just because something costs less doesn't mean it's of poor quality... just because you buy the most expensive item doesn't mean you have purchased the best quality item either.

Just my thoughts ;)
 
I can only speak for myself.
If I can only use it at the range, I'll find something very affordable. The reason I don't own an AR, and likely never will is because I can only use it at the range. If I could take an AR into the bush I'd own the badest mofo I could find and dress it with everything short of the kitchen sink. I think they're wicked awesome and would love to own one, but can't justify spending the coin on something that I'm restricted to where I can use it.

Yes I own a pistol, that's right, just one and I don't even remember the last time I used it. I support my range through membership and work parties, but crown land available to me is endless, and that's where I'd prefer to be.
 
On what planet do you live?

Leibermuster said:
Although i agree, there is one problem with the cheaper AR crowd or black rifle community attracting lower income people into the sport, and that is what kind of people are we bringing into the sport that could prove to be more of a liability to us. I have noticed sometimes the types or personality you don't want into the AR(pistol) or firearm world are immediately turned of by the price & time, this actually is a deterrent against the retard class of people.

Someone who is spending more money on certain types of AR or black-rifle is far less likely to commit a crime with them. Who would spend all that money and go on a rampage so to speak? When there is a shooting or someone does go nuts i prefer it to be a non-restricted cheap old school firearm then a tricked out AR. Obviously i don't want this to ever happen, but the Anti-gun wackos would have a field day with this.
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Please explain why someone who is lower income equals a higher probability to commit a crime! there are lots of people who commit crimes at higher income levels too,I have a family, wife 3 kids 5 cars a mortgage and a low income,Therefore my ability to drop 3 grand on a rifle is not at the top of my income allocation, I buy cheap guns, my shot gun was 60 bucks,I kill a lot of birds and rabbit with it, my sks was 175 i kill a lot of rocks and computers with it. My 1911 was 350 I have committed no crime with it,To it maybe....Damn dremmel,But with it no! I love ars but dropping 1500 on it is silly,when I have a store to pay off, Inexpensive fire arms dont make people lose there mind and kill people,If that was the case,There must be thousands of dead canadians from 303 cal rifles with the dreaded 10 round mags, Attitudes like what you put out here are garbage,and elitist.I choose to spend my money as I see fit, according to my needs and desires,My 400 dollar 30'06 is not good enough for you,fine its good enough for my family to eat meat.
This county is in a tough spot because people buy stuff they dont need with money they dont have(credit) to impress people they dont care about. Shoot for the fun of it, Why people feel the need to equate guns with crime makes me wonder what their intentions are. Guns and crime are not the same.Guns are for sport,unless you are a criminal, then you are a criminal.and that is a different category! Learn to look past your own intolerance!
 
I just had a good laugh. :D
I read under a members name; 'Uber Stupid Team Gunnutz' but let me explain, I'm on my iPhone and wearing dirty glasses, when I zoomed in I realized I read it wrong. Now I feel dumb. :redface:
 
2bad4u2 said:
I agree. I'll gladly spend more elsewhere to know I won't be contributing to his livelihood.
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So let me get this stright.
I ask a simple civil question.
What's us with people buying cheap AR,s and now your saying you don't want to buy anything from our company.
Maybe if I was rude too you would that make you feel better.
 
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