So why are none of us Hunters talking about the 30 x 30 Intiative?

Ardent said:
No MiG, afraid it just doesn’t matter what you’re shown, you have an impressively inflexible way of thinking. The mental gymnastics in this thread where anything the governments of the world come together on has to be some giant conspiracy to take something from… Western Canada, a place many of them surely aren’t aware exists… Well just like with most conspiracy theories, they vastly overestimating our importance, and politicians.

If China or Burkina Faso doesn’t fully comply with their commitments to 30x30, that’s beyond my control. Sure, I’d like it if they did and believe it’s necessary, but I’ve seen the habitat protections work here in Canada and seen them fail when not enacted in some of our last tracts of intact, contiguous old growth rainforest. If 30x30 makes more conservancies here in Canada, and my home in BC, that’s a win. Saying because you’re not sure the other signatories will fully complete their commitments, we should do more clear cutting, gill netting, and strip mining is like saying because my neighbour went broke and burned the house down I’m going to as well, on principle.

Protecting habitat is actually one of the few major initiatives that does irrefutably benefit the common citizen of the world. Intact wilderness is an asset, saving it doesn’t #### your future, quite the opposite. This is a wet rock in space, with definite limits to support us. Again in overestimating our importance, many seem to believe it’s much more than that, it’s not. Maybe not in some of the older generations lives here who are used to the view of an unlimited world of resources, but the younger generations will see the limits of this little rock hurtling through infinity tested as the earth’s population peaks and our collective desires grow.

Saving for the future isn’t stupid, even if our neighbours may not save in the same way we hope they will. It’s like African hunting to non-hunters. You may not like the people, but they end result is beneficial for all. This truck was parked right on my main camp outfitting, believe me it’s not prettier up hill. This drainage is gone, clear cut, and this habitat is not like Alberta where’s its meant to be periodically wiped out and regenerate. The salmon run in that drainage used to be big, now it’s not even worth fishing and the bears that did don’t show up anymore. This is what I base my opinions on, and I see it writ large across BC. The rifle picture is directly across the channel, in a conservancy.

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Yup, that's sad. Better destroy more jobs in the name of environmentalism I guess. Because you know that is what will happen. - dan
 
Speaking of jobs, only a handful of people getting rich off a natural resource that should belong to the people. How many mills have shut down in BC while barge after barge of raw logs are being shipped out of the country. It's a joke! and it's not sustainable like these corporations would like you to believe. I worked in the forest industry for 30 years.
 
Yet I can’t be the only one who thought “what a beautiful load of logs”. I also get a testosterone boost from the thought of that old truck rolling coal on a hill climb. I’m a truly aweful human.
 
Saskatchewan and BC big wood… differ, just as BC white tails don’t compare to Sask. And no not horrible starvin, immature perhaps.

This said BC’s logged nearly all of its big wood. That’s a stump behind my wife, cut off just above the frame. When do we say enough’s enough, when it takes centuries or millennia to get back to where it began. At zero, and just tell our kids what it was like to hunt and fish amongst it. I hope not.

The tree behind my wife was over 1000 years old when cut, that’s a #### amortization. And for what, to make some product that will be disposed of and forgotten in 30 years in Asia. I support forestry, in environments that can regenerate to where they were within a human lifetime, much of Canada can. The big tree coastal rainforest, does not, once it’s gone, it’s gone. And it’s damn near gone.

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Just playing devils advocate a bit Ardent, I much prefer the rifle pic to the truck pic.
I know spruce isn’t cedar but what do they make out of a 10’ log that can’t be made from a 30” log? Or metal, plastic, cement etc. I mean when the rest of the civilized world destroyed their old growth they were at least making ships and didn’t have the substitutes available now.
I’m afraid as long as humans have free will we’ll take what we can until there’s only a few of us left burning horse turds on the steppes
 
Ardent said:
Saskatchewan and BC big wood… differ, just as BC white tails don’t compare to Sask. And no not horrible starvin, immature perhaps.

This said BC’s logged nearly all of its big wood. That’s a stump behind my wife, cut off just above the frame. When do we say enough’s enough, when it takes centuries or millennia to get back to where it began. At zero, and just tell our kids what it was like to hunt and fish amongst it. I hope not.

The tree behind my wife was over 1000 years old when cut, that’s a #### amortization. And for what, to make some product that will be disposed of and forgotten in 30 years in Asia. I support forestry, in environments that can regenerate to where they were within a human lifetime, much of Canada can. The big tree coastal rainforest, does not, once it’s gone, it’s gone. And it’s damn near gone.

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Nice stump, but the old springboard notch, the rot and the other old stump in the background tell us it was cut probably 80 plus years ago. We can be sure that tree was milled here in Canada.

I don't agree with cutting the old growth that is left personally; the old growth biosphere isn't even fully understood, and what remains should remain as a sort of "seed bank" of all those thousands of plants and organisms IMHO.

But anyone who believes those who have looted and pillaged the world until now have suddenly got all green and luvy-duvy is indulging in self-delusion.
 
conor_90 said:
Where do you see a springboard cut on that tree?
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Assume the lady's head is 12 o'clock, then look along the 10:00 line a distance about equal to her height. A "crowfoot" branch is right over the spot.

Often a stump that size would have two or even three or more, sometimes in "steps" up the butt. Could be the others are not visible from this angle, or it could be that one was cut and then a different location chosen.

You'll notice the dark spot on the old stump in the right background, which could also be a rotted out springboard notch.
 
Shovel said:
Must have made some thump when it hit the ground. Gotto admire those loggers from back then
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The height of the stump is the other give away: they'd cut them above the swell of the butt. The extra work to cut lower wasn't worth the extra wood, and the swell or flare would have made the logs harder to drag/skid or load on a rail car. A hand-logger skidding the logs downhill to water didn't want a flared end dragging on the end of his logs when he had to jack them up with a Gilchrist to get them sliding. A lot of good shake wood in those stumps even many decades later.

They called them "bush apes" for a reason!
 
RRCo. said:
The height of the stump is the other give away: they'd cut them above the swell of the butt. The extra work to cut lower wasn't worth the extra wood, and the swell or flare would have made the logs harder to drag/skid or load on a rail car. A hand-logger skidding the logs downhill to water didn't want a flared end dragging on the end of his logs when he had to jack them up with a Gilchrist to get them sliding. A lot of good shake wood in those stumps even many decades later.

They called them "bush apes" for a reason!
Click to expand...

Also the flared but would cause a grain deflection in the wood, they wanted straight grain.
 
Good professional eye RRco. Yep, south coast stump. Forestry is important, but it needs to evolve here, it’s inevitable anyhow better to start while there’s still a fraction left.

Would have been something to see much of the coast before logging, on our farm growing up where two giant cedar stump husks in the bush. Was mind blowing to stand inside it and think that used to live here. There’s very little of the old growth left, what there is should stand, forestry can adapt away from old growth to a sustainable harvest. It came into sharp focus as I saw the old growth get logged in the outfitting territory. The cut blocks weren’t the oasis of life for game we’re often pitched here, quite the opposite unless you consider dropping down to just deer and a few black bears a bustling ecosystem.

That’s what’s happened in so much of Canada, that it’s all people know and it’s become normal. Problem is not enough get out and see what’s being lost, so it’s just a distant thought to many. More here are interested in what’s being said on US political news than what’s happening out there, it strikes me as… crazy.

TTmMk2V.mp4

coFDu31.jpg
 
Ardent said:
Good professional eye RRco. Yep, south coast stump. Forestry is important, but it needs to evolve here, it’s inevitable anyhow better to start while there’s still a fraction left.

Would have been something to see much of the coast before logging, on our farm growing up where two giant cedar stump husks in the bush. Was mind blowing to stand inside it and think that used to live here. There’s very little of the old growth left, what there is should stand, forestry can adapt away from old growth to a sustainable harvest. It came into sharp focus as I saw the old growth get logged in the outfitting territory. The cut blocks weren’t the oasis of life for game we’re often pitched here, quite the opposite unless you consider dropping down to just deer and a few black bears a bustling ecosystem.

That’s what’s happened in so much of Canada, that it’s all people know and it’s become normal. Problem is not enough get out and see what’s being lost, so it’s just a distant thought to many. More here are interested in what’s being said on US political news than what’s happening out there, it strikes me as… crazy.

TTmMk2V.mp4

coFDu31.jpg
Click to expand...


That Stave Lake! Wicked place !
 
Not Stave, but you’re in the right region.

If you’re into crushing beer cans on your forehead while catching sucker fish, shooting appliances, and mud bogging amongst giant stumps Stave’s nirvana. Said only half in jest. Imagine that place a hundred and fifty years ago.

The North end is still good way away from the roads, but pretty damn beaten up.
 
Ardent said:
No MiG, afraid it just doesn’t matter what you’re shown, you have an impressively inflexible way of thinking. The mental gymnastics in this thread where anything the governments of the world come together on has to be some giant conspiracy to take something from… Western Canada, a place many of them surely aren’t aware exists… Well just like with most conspiracy theories, they vastly overestimating our importance, and politicians.

If China or Burkina Faso doesn’t fully comply with their commitments to 30x30, that’s beyond my control. Sure, I’d like it if they did and believe it’s necessary, but I’ve seen the habitat protections work here in Canada and seen them fail when not enacted in some of our last tracts of intact, contiguous old growth rainforest. If 30x30 makes more conservancies here in Canada, and my home in BC, that’s a win. Saying because you’re not sure the other signatories will fully complete their commitments, we should do more clear cutting, gill netting, and strip mining is like saying because my neighbour went broke and burned the house down I’m going to as well, on principle.

Protecting habitat is actually one of the few major initiatives that does irrefutably benefit the common citizen of the world. Intact wilderness is an asset, saving it doesn’t #### your future, quite the opposite. This is a wet rock in space, with definite limits to support us. Again in overestimating our importance, many seem to believe it’s much more than that, it’s not. Maybe not in some of the older generations lives here who are used to the view of an unlimited world of resources, but the younger generations will see the limits of this little rock hurtling through infinity tested as the earth’s population peaks and our collective desires grow.

Saving for the future isn’t stupid, even if our neighbours may not save in the same way we hope they will. It’s like African hunting to non-hunters. You may not like the people, but they end result is beneficial for all. This truck was parked right on my main camp outfitting, believe me it’s not prettier up hill. This drainage is gone, clear cut, and this habitat is not like Alberta where’s its meant to be periodically wiped out and regenerate. The salmon run in that drainage used to be big, now it’s not even worth fishing and the bears that did don’t show up anymore. This is what I base my opinions on, and I see it writ large across BC. The rifle picture is directly across the channel, in a conservancy.

ZLtHdIp.jpg


AN38k2g.jpg
Click to expand...

Thank you for the compliment.

I don't know that we are actually that far apart. In 2023 it is morally questionable to cut down an old growth tree to make something that can be made from a 90 year old tree that was PLANTED (yes, this was being done 100 years ago). This Country can't compete with timber plantations in more favourable climates except with volume, volume the, let's call it the Fire Belt, can provide. If I ran the show there'd be a lot more logging in Bighorn Sheep range, and if that isn't economic, take a match to it, Sheep, as an example, are being crowded out by ingrowth, there are more trees now than there has ever been.

Just watch, 30x30 is "aspirational" for China and Burkino Faso, but will be a "legally binding international agreement" forced upon BC, AB and SK and used to stymie Mining (which creates awesome habitat if you read Geist and Gilchrist or Boone and Crockett or pay any attention to the auction tags) and Oil and Gas, they are certainly trying to hobble an independent West, why do you think they killed Northern Gateway? For that matter, why do you think Banff and Jasper exist? National Parks controlling the passes through the Rockies. BC is only within Canada because the voting laws back then disenfranchised those not born in the British Empire.

I certainly disagree with you about large predators, the best use of the non-arable land is to provide the most amount of moose, deer, elk in people's bellies.

Of course you know it's all a bunch of BS, claiming to care about the environment or the climate while jetting around and paving over the best land in the entire country, and southern Ontario may be the best land on the entire continent. Bringing in a million Imports a year to pump the population up to 100 million.
 
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