So why DA Grizzly?

supernova said:
Although I see your point, I dont think its right to try and force it on people. You believe in it firmly and thats just fine, but not everyone does. If someone wants to buy chinese guns, thats fine. You know why? Canadian distributors get paid in that process. The importers who bring them in make money. Canadians make money off those chinese guns. You dont care that little items in your house are chinese but care about where your guns are made? That doesnt make sense to me at all. You "supported" a communist country when you bought said items but refuse to support that same communist country when you buy your guns? I dunno man, doesnt add up to me. Leave people alone, why make them feel bad about buying things they want?
Click to expand...

Did you catch my breakdown of the products I keep and use? Every single thing I can, I support Canadian, American, and European; democracies. From my vehicles to my shirts and socks to my kitchen knives. As farmers we supported local at all costs, that mentality is dying, rapidly.

Why do I rag on Chinese guns, and should we feel bad about buying them? As firearms owners we absolutely should feel bad about sending money to a country that is:

1. Communist, going totally against the democratic principles we as firearms owners value more highly than most

2. Doesn't support civilian firearms ownership

3. Produces products that undercut the companies who designed them in their own market

4. Takes sales from western manufacturers who actually support our sport and cause, do you think China gives a damn about supporting our shooting sports, legal causes, and organizations?

Think of buying western goods as charity, the best charity going. You get a better product, and support your sport all while enjoying your purchase. Chinese does absolutely zero for our cause, it only fuels the "I want it" mentality.
 
Ardent said:
I appreciate a good response, so it appears your argument is "Why care where it comes from?" I still do, and I also still feel like you're missing my point. As mentioned in earlier posts in this thread I own guns from countries aside from Canada and the US- but they're all from Western style democracies. We can make choices in a lot of things we buy, in guns, the choices are incredibly easy. I can also assure you that you would be just as surprised how much I avoid the products of communist, repressive countries like China as you feel I'd be in an inspection of my household for Chinese goods. I care, because the facts are clear: buying Western, especially Canadian and American, guns helps our cause hugely. Buying boatloads of tacticool Chinese... Not so much. Plus, I like guys like me feeding a family and enjoying western life. I'd much sooner support them with my gun money. Others think walmart's a good place to save money and couldn't give two you know what's.
Click to expand...


I see where you're coming from, but my stance isn't "why care?" it's "if you're going to denounce people for supporting something indirectly through purchases, then you'd better not be supporting them yourself". It's the equivalent of the vegetarian denouncing hurting animals while buying leather example I mentioned earlier. And if you'd like to avoid buying Chinese products, then I respect that. However, you do in fact support them through purchases. Your car parts, most likely most of your electronics etc. And I can understand if there's no alternative, but that comes off as an excuse considering you seem to be so opposed to supporting them and feel that anyone that does should "feel ashamed". Can you not see how that's even a bit hypocritical? Do you feel shameful every time you turn on your tv or computer? You still have a choice not to buy these thiings, but decided to do so for whatever reason, so that automatically makes it contradictory to chastise people for doing so. Why is buying a gun so awful, yet buying a computer or what have you ok?

And you used the products being assembled here as an example of a loophole, well couldn't the same be said about the Canadian dealers/distributors/shops that are making a living selling these items? Isn't that the same thing? It's not the fact that you refuse to buy Chinese guns, hey more power to you, it's the way you seem to chastise people that do and the obvious flaw in your reason for it. You absolutely cannot knock someone for indirectly supporting a system that you yourself do without being a hypocrite.
 
You also have points to a degree but the issue that always seems left out with you guys is this; guns are made here, computers are not. We can't even compare them in the same sentence. There's no hypocrisy when items are required to do your job, and it's just not something we make.

If the situation was reversed, China making all the best guns, home to Colt, Cooper, Winchester, HK, Kimber, Wilson, etc and us with only NorCaninco making knock offs cheap, then you'd have the situation we're in with guns and I'd grant your point. Minus the whole supporting a country that doesn't support civilian firearms ownership thing.

The reality however is that the best guns, bar none, are made in the West. The best computers and cell phones certainly not, as a matter of fact to my knowledge there isn't a standard production all-American or Canadian computer. So my analogy with reversing the gun production situation is even too generous. In your argument, to not be a hypocrite one must denounce technology, vehicles except for a 1950's Chevy, and wear homemade clothing. In mine, nothing changes except you gain better quality firearms and help our sport and cause.

Last I checked, computer chip makers weren't under constant political onslaught; gunmakers are. Who's going to try and stretch the hypocrite, or everyone else is doing it arguments further? I've dealt with these more than a few times before, in the end neither have a leg to stand on. :redface: As for Canadian importers/retailers turning a profit on Chinese goods, that's called the walmart syndrome. I can summarise in that nealry all research indicates it's not a good thing for a country. Retailers make money when they sell western guns too... :redface:
 
Ardent said:
Vyrtual, sendmore; so what is your argument? "Everyone else is doing it?" Vyrtual, we agree on some things, but the argument of "your house is full of it" is literally only the argument above. Guns have the notable distinction of being important to us politically, most TV's aren't. Homegrown manufacturers, even American manufacturers help us, it's not even debatable.
The "check your house" argument is very simply as mentioned the age old adolescent "everyone else is doing it" argument. It doesn't matter if you like Chinese lawn ornaments or televisions, it does matter if you buy Chinese guns when we make those here and damn good ones.
Click to expand...

I'm sure we agree on a lot of things, and I'm sure there're a few that we don't, and that's fine with me. I think we're just off a bit on this one.

For me it's not an "everyone is doing it" thing. My issue isn't with not wanting to support something, it's only with chastising others for doing things you yourself have done/are doing.

I don't disagree that buying local helps, that's obvious, but why does buying one thing overseas mean you don't buy local as well? Heck, I have a bunch of north American firearms, so why can't I buy a very quality firearm from somewhere else as well? Especially when that knockoff is IMO superior to the local one. IMO the grizzly is a far better purchase than the express, and when you take into account the cheaper price tag, to me it makes sense. Heck I'd love to buy a gorgeous 870p and throw a short barrel on it, or buy some awesome 3000$ AR, but not everyone can afford it. So why shouldn't people be able to buy what they can afford guilt free? Especially if it's a quality product?
I agree that china has some serious flaws, but look at the states as an example. How much money is owed to them? Isn't that tantamount to trash talking someone then asking them for massive loans?

And also, the knockoff argument doesn't really hold water either. The patent is up, so you either believe in a free market or you dont.
 
Hey I totally agree, I think the west certainly does make some of the best firearms around. But unfortunately, some also come with very hefty pricetags in comparison. Like I mentioned in my last post, I would absolutely love to own a the Springfield 1911 I've been eyeing, or the AR hanging on the wall at one of my local gunshops, but the 1500-4000$ pricetags slap me back into reality lol. Maybe if I hit that lotto max on Friday, oh, I drool thinking of all the sweet guns I'd own if I won that! Lol.

Now unfortunately Most have no lotto winnings in their bank and can't afford to drop 1000's of bucks on the guns, so why not in the mean time have fun with a cheaper model?

And sure computers can be made here, I've had mine made for me. But I honestly can't tell you where the parts came from, or even how it's done lol. And cars are also made here, and in other westernized countries, can you be sure no Chinese parts are in yours? I certainly can't.

And yes, that's exactly what you'd have to do to not be a hypocrite (your example). Hypocrisy doesn't get a pass because not doing so is difficult. And again, it's not that you don't want to support china through gun purchases, i completely respect that, it's *only* your sentiment that those that do should feel "ashamed".

Ardent said:
You also have points to a degree but the issue that always seems left out with you guys is this; guns are made here, computers are not. We can't even compare them in the same sentence. There's no hypocrisy when items are required to do your job, and it's just not something we make.

If the situation was reversed, China making all the best guns, home to Colt, Cooper, Winchester, HK, Kimber, Wilson, etc and us with only NorCaninco making knock offs cheap, then you'd have the situation we're in with guns. Minus the whole supporting a country that doesn't support civilian firearms ownership thing.

The reality however is that the best guns, bar none, are made in the West. The best computers and cell phones certainly not, as a matter of fact to my knowledge there isn't a standard production all-American or Canadian computer. So my analogy with reversing the gun production situation is even too generous. In your argument, to not be a hypocrite one must denounce technology, vehicles except for a 1950's Chevy, and wear homemade clothing. In mine, nothing changes except you gain better quality firearms and help our sport and cause.

Last I checked, computer chip makers weren't under constant political onslaught; gunmakers are. Who's going to try and stretch the hypocrite, or everyone else is doing it arguments further? I've dealt with these more than a few times before, in the end neither have a leg to stand on. :redface: As for Canadian importers/retailers turning a profit on Chinese goods, that's called the walmart syndrome. I can summarise in that nealry all research indicates it's not a good thing for a country. Retailers make money when they sell western guns too... :redface:
Click to expand...
 
my 12.5" Grizzly had noticeably less recoil than my friend's 870. It is because his 870 is lighter than my Grizzly.

I also found that the remington felt cheap and flimsy by comparison. The grizzly feels substantial and well-built.
 
Ardent:

You can exult all you want about how your Black-and-white fallacy marketing model ie: "the your with us or against us" is the only solution to your perceived failing of the Canadian firearms industry.

The consumer however with the ca$h in their wallets are the ones that will ultimately determine the rise and fall of this industry.

Your protectionist revision for the CGN market and beyond is flawed since the "local" market FAILED to fill the void / demand for local made products that fall into what you've coined Wal-Mal mentality for masses.

It WAS never ever about a moral purchase, its about creating a range of price and quality choices for that customer - which include low end firearms for the low end consumers.

These low end consumers will always purchase to their budget, so if you want the business from these customers I would suggest that perhaps you should listen to their wallet as oppose to them having to listen to your Black-and-white fallacy marketing'

Want the 911 ?

Norinco as you aptly use the term "blatantly"(again more fallacy marketing) copied and imported their M4 to the masses here. Sells @ Target Sports.

NEA locally builds the M4 here local. Sells @ Target sports

So if yet again we use your B&W marketing model, the Norc owners are at fault for not purchasing a local NEA M4 ?

Was there anything wrong with their hard earned cash ? Ohh wait it was their purchasing morals ? Why then would those capitalistic pigs from Target Sports be selling commie built M4s beside local made NEA M4s ?

Ok here is what Target Sports sees as do the consumers that shop there see, perhaps you too can understand this version of non moral real world purchasing model works.

Order of price range for M4s:

Norc M4 $675.00

NEA M4 $1099.00

KAC M4 $ 3200.00

You will note each M4 brand has whats called a niche market .

So is this wrong ? Yes in your paradigm it is. Is the consumers wallet wrong ? Heres a hint, wallets dont have morals.

Until you bring a lobbyist to Ottawa to force tariffs on Norinco so the price of their M4 is equals that to a NEA then your playing field levels out BUT we all know that aint ever gonna happen.

As mentioned before it would become another protectionist racket(often referred to as price gouging)and the consumers loses.

Wanna win the hearts and minds of the gun consumer ?(lol) then create a niche local market thats price point savy then. Lecturing to potential buyers about patriotic values and morals does not create local sales, it creates conflict & division and then you will NEVER have a hope of selling to them when they want to move up to another niche.

Like the old adage goes: the customer is always right.
 
Last edited:
i chuckle when the subject of american/canadian made firearms comes up people say buy american buy canadian dont support china for reason ............... but in fact, a great many "north american" firearms companies have moved production offshore to china. so if you buy, for example a remington the production work was done in china and maybe the assembly as well. the biggest exception to that, i think, is mossberg.

dean
 
longshot38 said:
for example a remington the production work was done in china and maybe the assembly as well. the biggest exception to that, i think, is mossberg.
Click to expand...


Remington?

Wikipedia said:
"Remington Arms Company, Inc. was founded in 1816 by Eliphalet Remington in Ilion, New York, as E. Remington and Sons. It is the oldest company in the United States which still makes its original product, and is the oldest continuously operating manufacturer in North America. It is the only U.S. company which produces both firearms and ammunition domestically, and is the largest U.S. producer of shotguns and rifles.



Remington has several production facilities today.

Corporate Headquarters: The corporate headquarters for Remington Arms is located at Madison, North Carolina.

Firearms Plants: Remington owns two firearms plants. The larger plant is located in Ilion, New York, at the historic site. This plant also is home to Remington's Powdered Metal Products Division. A new, state-of-the-art firearms facility was recently built in Mayfield, Kentucky.

Ammunition and Components Plant: Formerly developed in Bridgeport, Connecticut, All of Remington's ammunition is now developed at the 35-year old plant in Lonoke, Arkansas. This plant also is home to Remington's Industrial Products Division, and Ammunition Product Services. The old ammunition factory in Bridgeport was investigated by the Travel Channels, Ghost Adventures in 2009.

Custom Plant: Custom firearms are hand-crafted by professional gunsmiths at the Ilion, New York facility.

Technical Center: The technical and research center for Remington is located in Elizabethtown, Kentucky.

Target Plants: Remington has two target plants: in Findlay, Ohio and in Ada, Oklahoma."
Click to expand...
 
You guys keep measuring you dicks are talking about whats made where im grabbing my chinease grizz shotgun and fresh tin of skoal and im go shoot stuff
 
Not to d:h: but remember a lot of Canadians don't make what we used to. That's inflation and the recession/cut backs that have happened. If you've got the cash then yes of course you should at least consider buying 'local' but if your like most and can't afford to drop 500+ on your purchase, then ammo, ect your choices are made for you.

Do you think most people want a honda civic if they could afford to drive a Ford superduty? And still afford gas, insurance, repairs and the initial payment?

If I have the money I'd love to have Dlask or someone build my perfect choice for me, but if I'm stuck with low hours and bills to pay I don't really have that option.
-------
That said it would be nice to have a thread about these that doesn't always end up in a political argument. Some people would like to talk about the guns...
 
I bought a Grizzly, and dropped just about every aftermarket part I could into it. Jumbo safety, Mesa LEO stock with Enidine buffer, follower, S&J velcro shell holder, Wilson ghost rings, Surefire fore end...I even bought a used honest to goodness Remington 18.5" barrel because I wanted chokes and a longer bore once in a while. I could have bought a few Grizzly's for the money in it or maybe even a similarly configured 870 (less the barrel), so it wasn't about cheaping out.

The receiver is nicer in the Grizzly than the Remington line short of the Police or Wingmaster models, for the price of which I can get 2 DA Grizzly's. It comes out of the box with a 12.5" barrel, which on it's own as an aftermarket part costs at least $150, and isn't available elsewhere out of the box. Metal trigger guard (mind you I haven't heard many complaints of broken plastic ones from the Express owners). It's worked with all the aftermarket 870 items I've added.

The way I look at it, if Remington cared to compete, they could. They sell so many damned 870's it isn't funny. The US blocks Norcs from coming in, so they don't really care, as us Canadian Grizzly buyers are a drop in the ocean. Norc/DA aren't selling these with sporting barrels, which is Rems real market, but with over 50 years of tradition and a less than $50 difference between the Express and a relatively unheard of clone, there would be no threat even if they did - most hunters would go straight for the brand their dad used. In an open market where they weren't protected in the US, Remington could spend a few bucks, improve their low end product to beat/match the Grizzly, and it would be over quick. The Grizzly occupies a small market, and it works well in Canada.

The overall value equation is just better with the Grizzly. Remington could easily make a better opening price point 870. It's not like they have super tight tolerances, or are highly complex. Their supply chain fulfillment speed and dealer overhead costs would be lower, because to ship to North America (I'd guess that's the largest market) doesn't rely on a 2 month boat trip - container load orders wouldn't be needed. Remington is squeezing every dollar of margin they can out of them, and I chose to spend my money on the better product, irrespective of where it's made.
 
From when I joined this site I had no opinion of any shotgun.
I heard Remington's quality, the express mainly, isn't what it used to be. It may not be an inferior or low quality product but it's not what it was. Also recently in the Hunting sporting section people mentioned the Wingmaster isn't what it was either.
The Wingmaster (regardless of price) should compete with the chinese, just my opinion.
My interest in the 870/Grizzly is because I can get a short barrel without any sort of special order custom build etc, if not, I'd still be looking at the Mossberg/Maverick.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom