So you want a SA M1A....because you think it'll be better than a Norc M14s (m305)

Otokiak said:
JEBUS this has been argued for F'N-ever now ..

Yes I know, but rarely do people actaully show proof either way....usually it's 'norc this....norc that' or my buddy said this.......

I felt it was about time to show and tell it the other way....they are both excellent rifles, with pros and cons. I just had to show all the norc bashers that neither maker is 100% in quality control.

Don't think that the $$$$ M1A will buy you perfection.

Anyhooooo. Just my $ .02

GG&FB
 
I'd take a built up Norc over a NIB SA anyday of the week. Just got sick of SA quality control problems and cheap ass cast parts!

I NEED two new M14S...called Marstar ages ago to put my name on the list...waiting anxiously for the call. My lone remaining M14S needs company! Anybody hear the latest on when to expect the next shipment?
 
Otokiak said:
... now go looky at your norc(s) and post a pic(s) as lots will say and go "Oooh veddy veddy nice norc!" ... and for you Springfield lovers ... bring out your 1 beauty and post a pic so Springfield lovers can go "oooh veddy veddy nice ... bloody expensive but oh so veddy nice!" ... :p ;)
:runaway:
:D Lol:D :)
hillarious:dancingbanana:
 
Can someone do a picture of the "Parts to Keep" and the "Junk Pile Parts" of a Norinco M305 when rebuilding it to make it better than when it got here from off the boat. Obviously the rifle would be in parts for the picture.
 
Glenfilthie
Try dark international. I bought a m14S from Roger and it was a great experince. He has excellent customer service. The first M14s I ordered had a feeding issue, which was solved by a simple phone call. Roger sent out a new rifle that day and payed for all shipping. you can find his web site via google search or just add the www. darkinternational .com
 
Have a Polytech M14s and it is an awesome shooter, and I am very lucky to own a 308 T-26 copy with 18.5 inch barrel. With the gun gods smiling down upon me I have a Danish VAR M1 Garand. Of course previously owned all 3, but with no rust on any one of them.

For the price of all three I could buy ONE resticted SOCOM!

Ha........
 
Great rant GGFB. Lucky enough to periodically see your boxes of goodies and get jealous all over every time.

Wish people would think about the whole post though. All these people ripping the Americans. "Gotta get a kick outta yanks touting their home team's product, only for us to find better quality control coming from China"

Now lets carefully look at the list of suggested upgrades for your Norinco M-305.

For $400 M14s (M305) shoots great.

Upgrade 18.5 barrel $425 US made
Used USGI Bolt $300 US made
Garand sites $100 US made
USGI Stock $120 US made
Vortex $125 US made

Lets think about the other good upgrades.

Quality scope mount US made
EBR stock US made

Anything I've missed?

Oh yeah, don't forget the op rod spring. Replace with USGI. US made.

So the receiver is better. Hmmmm. What am I missing? Doesn't seem like quality control is that much better in China, otherwise we wouldn't be taking the Chinese receiver and building an American made rifle from it.

As far as the price, sure, much easier to sell a $400 rifle when you have 1 billion slave laborers versus union foundry and assembly workers making $30 per hour. I'd think that socially conscious Canadians would be all about supporting the folks making a living wage and not about supporting the Chinese government and their slave labor.

That being said, I love my M-305 with or without the US made upgrades.

PS:
rifle.jpg
 
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Oh please don't start with the slave labour stuff. That really has nothing to do with the quality control on a M305. Even if the guns are assembled by slaves, that doesn't mean unionized workers will do any better of a job. All it means is that each worker has a different motivation for getting the job done.
 
cancer said:
Oh please don't start with the slave labour stuff. That really has nothing to do with the quality control on a M305. Even if the guns are assembled by slaves, that doesn't mean unionized workers will do any better of a job. All it means is that each worker has a different motivation for getting the job done.

Read my post. Never said it did. Just pointing out that the quality of the US stuff would appear to be pretty darn good. The labor pool was not mentioned until I was discussing the price.
 
Well.... Not everyone in the US believes that SA inc is better than the Chinese. Actually the Chinese rifles are catching on down here . I have both 4 Chinese(Polytechs) and 4 SAinc rifles (2 Preban with all USGI parts and 2 of the newer ones with mostly SA inc parts) most of the SAinc parts have been swapped out for USGI or Italian garand parts. I also have one of the Federal Ordance M14's built on USGI parts along with 2 BM62's made by Beretta in the 60's .
This is just my opinion and I hope not to offend anyone,but this is what "I" have found from my experience.
Chinese rifles are very well built ,but they do have their short comings . Keep in mind that this is based on the "Older Polytechsform the 80's" and not the current crop of M305's coming into Canada. I have "NO" experience with the M305 and I cannot I comment on them . In my opinion they are a "Better rifle" than a new Springfield . I have had to replace the rear site assemblies on "All" of my Polytechs, but I have also had to replace the rear site assemblies on both of the New Springfields also. The Springfield op rods "Are" soft and have been replaced on both rifles as well ,Polytechs are still running Chinese op rods ! Polytech faux flashiders have been swapped for real flashiders only because I wanted to not because they failed . SA inc rifles still sporting the SAinc Reproduction flashiders because the work and I see no need to chane them except that they look ### without the bayonet lug but I haven't had to bayonet anyone in a long time anyway! SA inc replaced the bolt in 1 of my SA inc rifles because it kept spitting the extractor out and I ask that it be replaced with a USGI bolt after the 2nd time back to them they did . Yes ,I could have done it ,but I feel that it should not have happened after 60rds right out of the box ! 1 Chinese rifle has had the bolt replaced because I too have a "Magic box" (actually 7) and I finally bought a rifle that a USGI bolt would "Drop in" without alot of lapping. I am still running the Chiinese bolts on the other 3 with no problems to date . The barrels and gas systems on "All" are stock Chinese with no problems to date. I am running USGI trigger groups in all but 1 of the Polytechs, I am also running USGI trigger groups in all SA incs. SA inc trigger housings are cast and very soft just like their op rods and site assemblies . I sold all of that junk to someonelse that wanted it . I am still using Chinese barrels as well .I have paid anywhere from $1050 U.S. - $1500 U.S. for my Springfields and some are very well buily and shoot well ,but others have had their issues. On the other hand I have paid anywhere for $550 U.S. to $600 U.S for all 4 of my Polytechs. I owned 2 Springfields allready when I bought my first Polytech $600 (The seller had 2 ) and when I tried it out I liked it ! I went back and bought the other one for $600 ! I am a huge fan of the Chinese builds !Oh I did change out the stocks on all of the Polytechs. 2 wear standard USGI and one wears a SA BM-59 type folder that Sprinfield use to sell for the M1A. The other is in E2 stock with all of the goodies .
Not everyone in the U.S. thinks that the Springfield is "Better" than Chinese and I have not commented on the Federal Ordnance because I have yet to shoot it ,but for $650 U.S. with all USGI parts How could I go wrong ? Parts kits here are fetching over $1,000 U.S. when you can find one .
This is based on my first hand experiece not my Brother- in- law's Uncle's cousin knew someone that had one once and said it was junk .
Whatever you have just enjoy them and shoot straight !
Mike
 
it really doesn't matter which one is better to me.for the purchase price of a S.A. i just wouldn't have bought one.it may or may not be worth the price,i'm not argueing this point though.the fact that there is so many people that recommended an m305 is the reason i bought one,and now own two.i personnaly don't beleive that S.A. lost out on a sale from me because for that price point i would have pimped out an AR a little or gotten into a sig for just a little more.i was quite happy with just my garand until i bought my first norc.

one sits in a big red birch stock,has a usgi op rod spring and a stainless op rod guide.shoots great at 200m probably longer,but haven't had the chance yet.

the other sits in a usgi fiberglass stock with the same add ons and is what i will take hunting next.this one i needed to reindex the barrel and play with the rear sights.again its zeroed at 200m and shoots great,just not quite as well as big red.

both rifles exceed my expectations for accuracy and function without much of anything for replacement parts.there really seems to be an idea in alot of peoples minds that everything but the receiver has to be replaced on these rifles,maybe thats so for competators who are shooting in matches?but i suspect most guys are like me,just a recreational shooter with too little time on his hands.
 
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I owned a Springfield Armory Supermatch. I've also shot a M305 recently. I'm afraid there is no comparison. The supermatch stomped all over the M305. (As it should for the price differenece).

Now that is not a diss to the m305 as I will probably buy one. They are great shooters. BUT they are no Supermatch.
 
smak_daddy said:
I owned a Springfield Armory Supermatch. I've also shot a M305 recently. I'm afraid there is no comparison. The supermatch stomped all over the M305. (As it should for the price differenece).

Now that is not a diss to the m305 as I will probably buy one. They are great shooters. BUT they are no Supermatch.

Yes but 2.5k can go a long way in bumping a m305 to a supermatch
 
I saw a link to this thread and found it interesting. I have no experience with the newer Chinese M14's available to you Canadians but the Polytech M14S I have is a great rifle. I paid about $800 (USD) to get it New in Box earlier this year. All I have done to the rifle is put a real flash suppressor with bayonet lug on it and put enough U.S. made parts to make it compliant with the law. Not all Americans think they are bad rifles. I would love to be able to get another M14 for ~$350, and I would have bought tons of these back before the Chinese weapons ban in the 90's if I was old enough back then. I'm jealous that you all can get these rifles for such a low price :mad: . My only comfort is my collection of 20 round magazines :D . A lot of Americans do hate Chinese made products but they also hate giving money to the People's Republic of China. I think it is hypocritical to ban Chinese made firearms and ammo but not ban all that crap in Wal Mart...

The only negatives I can think of for this rifle are the slave labor used to build it and for the older rifles in the U.S., the bolts are sometimes a problem. The money I spent on my rifle stayed within the U.S., and my bolt has been fine so far. The chamber is for 7.62 NATO and not .308 Win, so I have only used surplus ammo. The bolts are sometimes soft and increase headspace quickly, so I have a spare USGI bolt that will be installed sometime in the future.

I think people are realizing how great a deal the Norinco and Polytech firearms were/still are.
 
mastert said:
I think it is hypocritical to ban Chinese made firearms and ammo but not ban all that crap in Wal Mart...

Exactly!!! The same goes for Canadians that downplay the M-305 because of where it's made. It's the same as that 65$ DVD Player or the 15$ toaster. We want thing's cheap. The M-305 is not only cheap...It's of reasonable quality as well.

Nic
 
I don't understand why the Yanks or even us Canuckistanis haven't addressed this.

Clearly, there is a market for a home grown product that is not over priced like the SA's are. You would think that it would be worthwhile for somebody like Ruger to re-tool for production. I would bet such a rifle would sell like hotcakes if one were to market the thing properly.

I know the Norcs are great, but I would much rather see our guys making an affordable battle rifle like this rather than waiting a million years to buy one from the Chinese.

Why won't anyone jump in to compete? Obviously it would be an uphill battle in Canada that welcomes Chinese imports...but there is a ready market in the US.
 
And on and on the great forged vs cast debate rages...

My 2 cents - buy one you are comfortable with and be happy with it:


Cast technology is isotropic with similar characteristics in all directions. Simply means that the material tends to the same strength along the latitudinal and longitudinal axis of the part.

Forged is Anisotropic with similar characteristics in the same direction. Simply means that the material tends to the disproportionate strength along the latitudinal and longitudinal axis of the part.

Engineering arguments about moment stress physics and the importance of grain alignment aside, arguments regarding the relative strength of forged vs cast parts, are a bit of a red-herring.

I leave expansion on that point to a more eloquent post from another forum, responding to a question about M16 series casting strength. Please note that most discussions on modern casting are Density casts under heat and pressure:

http://yarchive.net/gun/investment_casting.html

Newsgroups: rec.guns
From: Ed.Harris@p0.f417.n109.z1.fidonet.org (Ed Harris)
Subject: Re: Quality Parts AR-15
Keywords: casting
Date: Mon, 18 Jun 90 19:20:38 GMT

In article <1990May29.172051.233@ism.isc.com> rats@ihuxz.att.com (D. Woo) writes:
>According to a mechanical engineer whom examined the receivers, he said
>that the EA receivers were sandcasted. I am not certain if anyone would
>want to trust their life on an Aluminum sandcasted receivers...

I think you might be confusing sand casting with investment casting.
The sand casting process not been used in the firearms industry except
for making non-stressed parts like barrel bands and buttplates on
blackpowder guns. The investment casting process used for precision
high-strength parts is done by making an injection moulded wax form of
the part to be cast. These parts are then gated together to form a
"tree" which may be grouped to contain maybe 30-40 rifle receivers or
60-80 rifle bolts, or several hundred small parts. The "tree" is then
dipped in a slurry of silica and water, alternating with layers of
granular silica and more of the silica "mud" until the "vestment" is
strong enough to withstand normal handling in the foundry. After air
curing the forms are fired in a kiln, which burns out the wax, hence
the name "lost wax" often used to describve the process. In casting the
parts the forms are heated in a has furnace and then filled with molten
steel, aluminum, titanium, or what have you. Small parts are usually
done in a centrifugal caster which spins the trees to ensure good
fillout, whereas large pieces are poured similarly to casting a BIG
bullet, except that aluminum and most stainless steels are cast in a
controlled atmosphere, usually argon, or nitrogen, to avoid oxidation
and to control shinkage porosity. When I was at Ruger the high-strength
parts, such as rifle receivers and bolts or revolver frames were all
X-ray quality and ultrasonically tested. They are in fact stronger than
forged parts made by traditional stock removal machining methods.

--

Ed Harris at The Black Cat's Shack (Fidonet 1:109/401)
Internet: Ed.Harris@p0.f417.n109.z1.fidonet.org
UUCP: ...!uunet!blkcat!417.0!Ed.Harris

Can't make an accurate statement about the dimensional accuracies as I have had no need to replace a single part after 5000 rounds.

As purchased, I see no need for swapping to USGI parts to date.

Either I'm pretty content with poor performace, or the rifle has been as good as advertised.
 
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Originally Posted by smak_daddy
I owned a Springfield Armory Supermatch. I've also shot a M305 recently. I'm afraid there is no comparison. The supermatch stomped all over the M305. (As it should for the price differenece).

Now that is not a diss to the m305 as I will probably buy one. They are great shooters. BUT they are no Supermatch.


Hmmmmmmm??
I've owned some Sproingfield Armory rifles,
1.] an older= BETTER [ single lug ] Super Match SS in a veddy veddy Xpensive MacMillan stock.... shot about 1 1/8" - 2 1/2" with the dozen or so 168 Gr MATCH loads I tested in it.

2.] an older = BETTER blue NM glass bedded into a Walnut stock ... shot about 1 1/4" - 2" with the dozen or so 168 Gr MATCH loads I tested in it.

3.] [2] standard SA regular rifles - both shot under 2 1/2" with 7.62 NATO Ball
4.] an OLD beater SA with a rotted out barrel [ shot corrosive, didn't clean, let it sit for years ] that would still shoot UNDER 2" with ball.

Beater SA # 4 GOT BLING
= Barnett HEAVY BArrel short chambered to .308 Win, TRW GI EVERYTHING, GI stock, hand fitted by the best M-14 geek around at the time [ that would be me ]. It shot about 1 1/8" to 2", again with the dozen or so 168 Gr MATCH loads I tested in it.

NOTE: all of these groups were off a bipod, with a 24X scope.

I also had MANY Chinese/GI bastard half breeds [ Chinese receiver/all GI parts ].

One such had a GI barrel and GI stock ... it shot as good or better on average as any of the Sproingfields ... INCLUDING my Supermatch. And that with a 4X scope.

Another shot 1 3/4" groups with IVI ball ... and that with metal ISSUE GI sights and a non bedded WOOD GI stock with my folding stock butt conversion.

I'd say acuracy depends more on the individual rifle and WHAT AMMO IT LIKES BEST, than on brand.

And by the way,
all of my Chinese M-14 type rifles combined [ somewhere around two dozen or so ] cost less than those [5] Sproingfields.

Yuz pays yur money and yuz takes your chances ... but with Sproingfield you DO get a warrenty, resale value, and the option of taking it to the US for a shoot.

With the Chinese you don't.
[;{)

PPS: With BOTH my Match prepped Sproingfields I needed to do some Fixxin' ... nether one was perfect as it came. And NO, I did NOT send them back to Sproingfield for warrenty work ... I wanted them THIS year, not NEXT year.

LAZ 1
 
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