Soft Vintage shotgun Market
- Thread starter struff55
- Start date
It seems firearms are no different than other things, they have a power curve. . Firearm manufactures need to come up with reasons for folks buying their guns. . Pre-64 Winchesters last many lifetimes and seldom are worn beyond recovery. . Granted, steel shot and choke tubes are a big reason the older quality shotguns have fallen out of favor. . Those that have wanted them most likely already own a few and those entering the market can only afford a gun they can use. . Non-toxic shotshells are not cheap and owning 2 or 3 classics is not feasible for young people just starting out with raising a family and all. So they want one gun to do it all. . With close to 2 million made, a real nice Winchester Model 12 will go countless go-rounds on EE before the seller drops the price and gives it away. . But pre-64 Model 70's, with only 581,347 made, one that's still in pristine original condition, and priced fairly, won't stick around long and lucky if it lasts a day or two. .
Pre-64 Model 70's are a different story as they are still relevant to be used and collected. . The rifle makers come up with all kinds of reasons why you need to get rid of the old ones and buy new ones; lighter, better, more accurate, safer, better metallurgy, better stocks for scope use, etc. . . The magazine sport writers parrot all this foolishness to further their career and sell advertisement, but the truth is, Winchester Proof Steel is about as good as you get. . I've owned both pre-64, post-64. new ones and all but the ones I have left are my 15 pre-64 Model 70's. . Comparing an FN M70, brand like new, to a 60 plus year old M70 that's been rode hard and put up wet with a worn bore is no comparison at all. . Run this comparison to my pre-64's that are in mint condition and it's a different story.
Pre-64 Model 70's are a different story as they are still relevant to be used and collected. . The rifle makers come up with all kinds of reasons why you need to get rid of the old ones and buy new ones; lighter, better, more accurate, safer, better metallurgy, better stocks for scope use, etc. . . The magazine sport writers parrot all this foolishness to further their career and sell advertisement, but the truth is, Winchester Proof Steel is about as good as you get. . I've owned both pre-64, post-64. new ones and all but the ones I have left are my 15 pre-64 Model 70's. . Comparing an FN M70, brand like new, to a 60 plus year old M70 that's been rode hard and put up wet with a worn bore is no comparison at all. . Run this comparison to my pre-64's that are in mint condition and it's a different story.
Last edited:
You're correct in one respect, being that shotguns unless of the rare and high quality variety are not sought after by today's buyers. You essentially give away model 12s, auto 5s and the likes of savage 311s and foxes.
But as for rifles, I'm seeing something completely different.
I see the newest Japanese model 70 and 94s as the best Winchesters ever made. There is no reason now to ever buy a push feed or deal with a pre 64 that has been drug through the mud on account of a make believe soul in an piece of wood and steel.
Firearms being made now are just better than they have ever been in the past. And there is no need to pay for old quality when new quality is available today.
Last edited:
If I may (as someone who got his gun license at the ripe old age of 29)
I really like double guns in both vertical and horizontal configurations. I also really like the old long recoil A5's. Ultimately I can't justify buying a $1200 gun with fixed chokes when I can get a Benelli autoloader for about the same money. For me it isn't lack of interest, it's lack of practicality.
I really like double guns in both vertical and horizontal configurations. I also really like the old long recoil A5's. Ultimately I can't justify buying a $1200 gun with fixed chokes when I can get a Benelli autoloader for about the same money. For me it isn't lack of interest, it's lack of practicality.
- Location
- Barrie, Ontario
This is the truth.
Improved manufacturing and metallurgy makes the new, quality, guns superior. The cheap ones are still cheap.
The new product coming out of Miroku is, IMO, as close to perfect as mass market gets.
C
Improved manufacturing and metallurgy makes the new, quality, guns superior. The cheap ones are still cheap.
The new product coming out of Miroku is, IMO, as close to perfect as mass market gets.
C
That's about $450 more than I would pay for a utas. I only purchase tools that are useful.
sillymike
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
The <new> production guns might be better... But I still have an irrational lust for a full stock Mannlicher Schoenauer in 6.5x54
New guns are not necessarily better. The metal used in guns isn't radically improved and any benefits of enhanced manufacturing techniques are often lost due to profit-driven corner cutting and less attention by skilled craftsmen.The <new> production guns might be better... But I still have an irrational lust for a full stock Mannlicher Schoenauer in 6.5x54
I didn't understand or appreciate this until I had these differences pointed out to me by a skilled gunsmith. When I see a hand engraved gun that's 100 years old, I just think it's cool. I suppose people like me are becoming fewer and fewer.
I've gotten into older shotguns precisely because they can be cheap.
Seems no one wants the likes of a 1960s Ithaca 37 field grade, but there's a gun with an action that can be cycled with the light caress of 2 fingers that will tear up the trap field.
But when a guy will tell me that the $350 model 12 field grade I'm looking at was $900 a few years ago... There's no way I'd be looking at that price point.
Seems no one wants the likes of a 1960s Ithaca 37 field grade, but there's a gun with an action that can be cycled with the light caress of 2 fingers that will tear up the trap field.
But when a guy will tell me that the $350 model 12 field grade I'm looking at was $900 a few years ago... There's no way I'd be looking at that price point.
sillymike
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
All this talk about <old> guns makes you realize how fast time fly-by...
In the early 80's, my first shotgun was a new-left-over Super-x model 1... Got a great deal on it because 1) it was an <old> model the dealer had forgotten he had laying around in the warehouse... and few years later I got another good deal on a <old> M50 that was setup for trap, because a friend of the family took pity on me hunting ducks with a 26'' IC shotgun...
By the time I get around to selling them, they'll probably considered <ancient>
In the early 80's, my first shotgun was a new-left-over Super-x model 1... Got a great deal on it because 1) it was an <old> model the dealer had forgotten he had laying around in the warehouse... and few years later I got another good deal on a <old> M50 that was setup for trap, because a friend of the family took pity on me hunting ducks with a 26'' IC shotgun...
By the time I get around to selling them, they'll probably considered <ancient>
- Location
- Barrie, Ontario
Not just cool, but drool worthy. My dad has a Sauer and Sohn Royal Grade S/S in 20, and it is an amazing thing to look at. And a dream to shoot. Choked to M/F it is a nice gun for high/passing birds. Of course, its not quite at 100 yet .
However, I own one of the new Browning High Grade O/Us, and it is also amazing to look at. And a dream to shoot. With changeable chokes it is a nice gun for all situations.
C
.However, I own one of the new Browning High Grade O/Us, and it is also amazing to look at. And a dream to shoot. With changeable chokes it is a nice gun for all situations.
C
There are advantages to modern CNC production of uniform gun parts. There are significant advances in metallurgy that should also provide advantages.
Unfortunately, there are nasty cheap firearms flooding the market. There is poor fitting, inadequate hardening and lousy design on the worst of modern production.
Without attention to detail, there is no advance at all in firearms production. One thing the vintage British and some Continental makers had, in their historic production of quality firearms was attention to detail.
The tough task for the modern consumer is to sort out the good from the barely adequate, and from the inadequate.
Unfortunately, there are nasty cheap firearms flooding the market. There is poor fitting, inadequate hardening and lousy design on the worst of modern production.
Without attention to detail, there is no advance at all in firearms production. One thing the vintage British and some Continental makers had, in their historic production of quality firearms was attention to detail.
The tough task for the modern consumer is to sort out the good from the barely adequate, and from the inadequate.
- Location
- Ft. Mac. Alberta
Comparing new quality shotguns to quality guns of vintage age is not really applicable .
newer guns are built less expensive of modern materials fir sure, BUT they are not the same as shooting a 100 year + hammer double - not even the new hammer guns
I shoot both
Cat
newer guns are built less expensive of modern materials fir sure, BUT they are not the same as shooting a 100 year + hammer double - not even the new hammer guns
I shoot both
Cat
ninepointer
CGN frequent flyer
- Location
- Central Ontario
There are also a lot of old (pre-steel shot) shooter grade M37's, M12's, A5's and Wingmasters out there that are killing waterfowl with 2 3/4" steel loads these days. Other than perhaps some chokes that should be opened up from full to mod, their barrels are no worse for wear. Even if they do get some barrel scoring, who cares?
A good friend of mine has been shooting steel through full choked M37 ever since steel became mandatory. No scoring, no bulge. Keep in mind this is the standard barrel, not the Featherlight.
Last edited:
leveractionjunkie
CGN frequent flyer
- Location
- Kamloops, BC
Totally agree with you ninepointer. If you got em, shoot em. Why shoot a $300 modern toy when you could pay $300 for a properly made vintage gun. The majority of the concerns over shooting steel in older guns stems from the crappy wads that were in use when we first switched over to steel. Nowadays the steel shot hardly contacts the barrel. Should the chokes be opened up? Is it the end I the world if not? Most times no. I've heard plenty of accounts of shooting steel through fixed full guns with little effect.
Most of us nowadays (and I'm often guilty of it) are obsessed with changing chokes for different shots instead of just shooting the target. I didn't start messing around much until farting around with the clay target games and in reality most of it in hunting is BS. Most people get all concerned about the right choke but have 0% knowledge of what their pattern actually looks like on paper and in real life.
I shot a round of sporting clays with a guy from Britain a few years ago. He had a beautiful British made o/u sporting gun and was obviously a good shooter. He was ragging along with a group of us from the club and making us look like the redneck shotgun nutz we are. Our club has a lot of really unique terrain and target presentations and we often mess with setups to make them more challenging and sometimes silly hard. We did just that with an oncoming target that was screaming downhill towards the shooting station and crossing a out ten yards from the stand. We were all switching to skeet chokes some guys using heavy loads of #9 for more pellets I think even a few diffusers came out. Some did well, some did embarrassingly poorly, but that British guy vaporized every target he connected with, wich was most of them. When someone asked him "what choke you running?" He said "full, full, that's all we use back home as our target are usually much farther out". Of course he was talented and shooting a hand fitted gun which is a what really counts much more than choke.
