Some clarity on antique ammo please.

NaturalPath

NaturalPath

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I've read a lot, both here, and on the government sites, about what constitutes an antique gun. I own three flintlock rifles, which I know are prescribed as 'antiques'. I have no problem purchasing projectiles, or black powder for these rifles, since the components of ammunition do not require a license. I would require a license to purchase assembled ammo for a gun that fires cartridges. My question is, does one require a license to possess assembled ammo, even if the ammo is for a prescribed antique gun, including rifles and handguns? I've read so much about the guns themselves, but I haven't yet seen a clear answer to this. I'm sure there is one somewhere, or maybe this is a somewhat 'grey' area of the law, I don't know, that's why I'm asking.
 
Assembled ammunition is not considered any different just because it's for an antique.

Additionally, I wouldn't want to be caught with a loaded antique flint lock rifle and no pal. I could see it being argued that the components assembled inside an antique flint lock constitute the definition of ammunition.
 
PAL is not required to posses any antique firearm, loaded or unloaded.
Only restriction on loaded is, to be loaded, it must be in a place where it is safe and legal to discharge.
In Ontario, a PAL is required to purchase any assembled ammunition, however, to the best of my knowledge, no license is needed to posses ammunition.
 
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Yep, playkation, I understand your concerns. I don't expect that everyone, including LEO's will know the laws regarding antiques, and how to identify one. However, I carry a copy of those laws with me, in case any questions arise. I do understand antique gun laws fairly well, it is the ammunition that sort of puzzles me.

Thanks Pete04, the reason I ask is that I was considering purchasing an antique pistol, something like a Webley, and I wondered if carrying ammo for that pistol would require a license. I know that many folks reload special ammo for themselves, and they can purchase the components for that ammo without a license. I just wasn't all that clear on ammo, since a license is required to purchase assembled cartridges.
 
I think you will find that unless acquiring ammo components from a friend, most stores, particularly large stores, will require a PAL as a matter of policy. I also think that possessing a valid PAL will save you a lot of hassles from unknowledgeable enforcement people. If you enjoy winning arguments with conservation officers and police and occasional court battles then fill your boots. I think most of us would prefer to remain low key and not have the hassles

cheers mooncoon
 
You can buy lead balls, black powder and percussion caps/flints without a PAL.

So you can shoot your muskets without a PAL... as for antique cartridge guns, if you plan to shoot them with cased ammo, ie; metallic cartridges, I would just get your PAL.
 
Pete04 said:
snip however, to the best of my knowledge, no license is needed to posses ammunition.
Click to expand...

I believe this is true. In fact I have specifically heard the good folks in Miamichi telling someone without a licence to "just get your buddy with a licence to buy it for you".
True story.
 
Thanks for all the info folks, I appreciate your input. Nope, I won't be getting a PAL, this is exactly the reason I got three flintlocks, and why I'm trying to establish the status of possessing cartridge ammo for an antique gun. I understand the possible complications of not having a PAL, and I can live with that. Heck, even if you have a PAL, it probably wouldn't help all that much if you're in possession of an antique handgun, then you might need to go one step further and get an RPAL. I do plan to stay completely legal, as the laws of this country are written. However, in any legal situation the discretion of the attending LEO applies, whether you are fully backed by the law or not. If I'm stopped, I'll be courteous, I'll produce the legal info I carry with me, and then it will be up to the 'discretion' of the LEO, as far as what action to take, if any. This is true whether you have a PAL, or not. The same is true if you are stopped on a traffic violation.
 
Apologies, I thought you needed a pal to possess ammunition. On a side note, it does beg the question, how is it that I have read someone being charged with unsafe or careless storage of ammunition if anyone is able to possess it?
 
No apology necessary playkation. There are even a lot of gun enthusiasts who are unaware of the laws that regulate guns, especially antique guns. I still don't fully understand the ammunition side of things though. If you need a PAL to purchase the ammunition for cartridge guns, it seems to me that being in possession of such ammunition would require the same. I've read a lot about the guns themselves, and the ammo is only mentioned as a way of describing which guns are considered antiques and which are not. I've never actually seen anything to suggest one way, or the other, that ammunition alone requires a license, except when purchasing such ammo. It's always nice to have a clear-cut yes, or no, however, that may not be the case here.
 
playkation said:
Apologies, I thought you needed a pal to possess ammunition. On a side note, it does beg the question, how is it that I have read someone being charged with unsafe or careless storage of ammunition if anyone is able to possess it?
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This charge has nothing to do with being licensed or not. In my experience, it is thrown in as a catch all and is almost always added to any gun charge in the hope that something sticks. The actual offense would be that you have stored live ammunition along side unsafely stored firearms.
 
NaturalPath said:
If you need a PAL to purchase the ammunition for cartridge guns, it seems to me that being in possession of such ammunition would require the same.
I've never actually seen anything to suggest one way, or the other, that ammunition alone requires a license, except when purchasing such ammo. It's always nice to have a clear-cut yes, or no, however, that may not be the case here.
Click to expand...

All laws describe the action that is not allowed under the law.
The law says you need a PAL to purchase ammo. That's the law.
There is no law to say you need a PAL to posses ammo. If there is no law, you cannot break a law that does not exist.
To be clear, I'm not a lawyer but I have spent the last 8 years dealing with gun laws as I was charged with unsafe storage of guns and ammunition.
 
playkation said:
Apologies, I thought you needed a pal to possess ammunition. On a side note, it does beg the question, how is it that I have read someone being charged with unsafe or careless storage of ammunition if anyone is able to possess it?
Click to expand...

if you store ammo next to your furnace together with cans of paint thinner, that is unsafe and careless... even if anyone is able to possess it
 
Pete04 has nailed it regarding Ammo storage. Two obvious flagrant examples would be storing ammo under your bed beside your trigger-locked non-restricted OR ammunition on a shelf on the gun rack beside your trigger locked non-restricted firearm on display. Neither FIREARM is stored illegally until you put the ammunition with it. Of course with Restricted firearms the firearm must be "in a securely locked container not easily broken open or into" as well as being trigger locked OR if on display must be locked to the wall. All too often the "careless storage of ammunition" is thrown in even if the ammunition is stored in a legal but unlocked manner. Part of the "throw a truckload of charges at the dumb sap and offer to drop some of them if he pleads out". Once in a while the lawyer, JP or judge don't even contest them as false.
 
playkation said:
Apologies, I thought you needed a pal to possess ammunition. On a side note, it does beg the question, how is it that I have read someone being charged with unsafe or careless storage of ammunition if anyone is able to possess it?
Click to expand...

Even though anyone can posses ammo without a pal it still needs to be stored locked up. Components like primers, powder, brass and bullets don't need a pal to be purchased, though some retailers still ask.
 
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