Some Questions about the Ontario Turkey Hunting Seminars

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redge

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I have just read a thread, currently five pages long, about the OFAH and the commercialization of these seminars. Not only do I agree with what many people in that thread are saying (http://www.canadiangunnutz.com/forum/showthread.php?t=233237), I think that the problems with the course run deeper.

At the seminar that I attended in February, the Federation pulled in over $7,000 in fees, and sold a bunch of turkey hunting merchandise to an audience of 200 that they held captive from 8:30 in the morning to 3:30 in the afternoon. Then they did it all over again, presumably with another 200 people, the next day.

A few questions...

Where is all this money going?

Why is the OFAH competing with my area sporting goods/hunting stores for my business? Has it occurred to the OFAH that it doesn't look too good when the instructors/examiners are selling stuff to the people that they are supposed to be teaching/examining, and the seminar is structured in a way to facilitate the sale of gear? When my instructors started up with the sales pitch, telling us that the prices this year are, gee whiz, a bit cheaper than last year, did they think that we are all so stupid that we haven't noticed changes in the value of the Canadian dollar in the last 12 months? And if they are going to force people to attend what amounts to a trade show, is there a reason why all of the gear that they are selling is made in the US, including the turkey calls, when there are some first rate turkey call makers in Ontario?

Why aren't these seminars, on the highly debatable assumption that they actually have a function, available online, if only to save some people - in my class, I suspect a majority of people - having to drive an hour to two hours each way to attend? If Quebec can deliver its seminar online, and if Nova Scotia can deliver its entire Hunter Education programme online, except for the exam, why do people in Ontario have to show up for a seminar that runs almost a full day, delivered to 200 people at a shot, write a complete joke of an exam and then stand around while the examiners mark 200 papers? Is it because the instructors won't make money, and the OFAH won't have the vehicle of the seminars to sell hunting gear? Or is the OFAH having a problem grasping the concept of computers? If the latter, how hard can it be to borrow or buy the software that Quebec is using, change the content, and offer it to residents of Ontario?

Why is it that the certificate number that one gets at the end of the seminar doesn't work on the telephone system that the MNR set up to make it easy and efficient to buy a hunting licence, thereby forcing the people who attend these seminars to travel to an Ontario Service Centre to get their turkey hunting licence? Hint: maybe it didn't occur to the OFAH, the self-appointed voice of the Ontario angler and hunter, and the recipient of all this cash, that it might be a good idea to co-ordinate the certificate numbers with the MNR system. I do know this. If you call the MNR and ask them why you can't order your turkey licence over the automated phone system, they will tell you that it is because the numbering system that the OFAH is using is inconsistent with the MNR numbering system.

It's really hard to escape the conclusion that the OFAH has discovered a great cash cow, which it is going to milk for all it is worth, and that it forced me to pony up, and in the process waste a day of my time on what was a beautiful winter day. By the way, I do know that the MNR is nominally a partner in these seminars, but it is quite obvious that the OFAH is running the show.

I think that it would be great if the OFAH would explain what it is doing with the money that it collected during the weekend of seminars that it did in my area (as far as I can figure, about $14,000 in fees plus profits from sale of gear), and also how much money it is collecting from these seminars province wide.

Also, when I was at the seminar, I asked if there as an evaluation form for the course. I asked this question because just about any legitimate organization not only facilitates evaluation, but encourages it. For example, if you go to a St. John Ambulance course, you will be asked to evaluate the course as a matter of routine. What was I told by the OFAH turkey seminar instructors? I was told that there is no evaluation form, and further, that there was nobody to contact to express views on the course.

If you then contact the OFAH directly, and say that you want to send comments about their turkey course to both them and the MNR, they aren't in any hurry to give you the e-mail address of the MNR contact. They want the comments to go to them, and say that they will pass on your remarks to the MNR. That is actually funny. When I insisted, the OFAH coughed up the name and e-mail address of the person at the MNR who is responsible, on the Government side, for this turkey of a course.

Personally, I think that it would be a good idea if a group of Turkey hunters put together a series of comments and questions and sent them to both the OFAH and the MNR. Otherwise, it appears that there is not going to be any accountability, nor any attempt to address legitimate concerns, if only because there is currently no way to express concerns. Which appears to be exactly the way that the OFAH wants it.
 
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Because they are a NON-profit organization.

They do a lot of good in some areas.

Go to their web site to see where all the money goes.

I'm sure the guys at the top get their fair share too!
 
Can I have the name and email adress of the mnr guy please.... i would like to send in a few remarks about the trade show i was forced to attend due to the ofah.....
 
If the OFAH and the MNR provided the people who take this course with a way to evaluate it and comment, which is frankly elementary, I'd say use that. But they don't, so here is the info.

The person at the OFAH who is responsible for this programme is:

Matt Smith
Wild Turkey Program Coordinator
Ontario Federation of Anglers and Hunters
PO Box 2800
Peterborough, ON
K9J 8L5
P: 705-748-6324 ext 260
F: 705-748-9577
E-mail: matt_smith@ofah.org

According to Mr. Smith, the person at the MNR who is responsible is Joe Reid, who can be reached at joe.reid@ontario.ca
 
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in regards to the OFAH selling merchandise the turkey course i was forced to attend they had a local hunting shop come in and sell stuff.two of my friends took the course a couple weeks ago and a local hunting shop was selling his mechandise there. But on the other hand how much did they have to pay to sell their stuff there? but I agree with pretty much else.
 
At the two seminars that OFAH held in Ottawa in February, the OFAH instructors were selling the merchandise. If the instructors were running this on the side, pocketing the profits themselves, it is just plain outrageous.

Myself, I think that the OFAH is getting either all the profits or a cut. Otherwise, it's really hard to understand why they would force people to put up with this.

The one thing that is clear to me is that the people who are forced to take this seminar, and who are paying for it, are entitled to, and should be asking for, the answers to this and a number of other questions.
 
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turkey course on line? that just crazzy
who could have though of that??




but seriously, that would be something for a guy like me, I havent got a coures, not really interested in spending half a weekend indoors while I could be fishing, and so far I can live without a gobbler in my freezer, maybe Ill hold out on getting the course for a bit more and it will be availalbe on line

well put thread here, some very interesting points
 
Mandarb11,

In January, I asked my Hunter Ed instructor why there is a course specifically for turkeys. His response? "I can't give you an intelligible answer to that question".

However, there is a reason. Turkey hunting is done by most people with no orange and full camouflage, and one makes calls that make one sound like a turkey. Because of that, there is a concern that hunters will shoot one-another. The purpose of the course is to get across some messages that are intended to avoid accidents.

However, explaining the issue and the solutions takes less than an hour. If you have done any reading beforehand, or have spent a bit of time on the National Turkey Federation site, you know this stuff already. It does not take from 8:30 am to 3;30 pm to teach. It could also be just as easily covered online, as Quebec does. It took me well under ten minutes to write the so-called exam, which should give you an idea of how complex this is.

The course also includes some basic information about the re-introduction of wild turkeys to Ontario. I would have liked to see more on this, mainly because I'm interested in the history, but this is also information that could be made available online.

It's also quite obvious that this material could be taught during the Hunter Ed course. One has to wonder why it isn't. In the context of a Hunter Ed course, and if included in the Hunter Ed manual, it could be taught in minutes, and would make a good counterpoint to some of the other material. If they can use Hunter Ed to teach people about the re-introduction of Elk, and the need to avoid shooting them, they can certainly teach this. The only explanation that I can come up with is that it is a way for the OFAH to make money.

I don't have any problem with the content. I do have a number of questions, relating to why people are being jammed into this course like sardines in a can, how much money is being made, who is making it and what are they doing with it, why it is a platform for the sale of hunting gear in competition with local retailers (and if a local retailer is used, how it gets selected), why the course is not available online, why there is no way to evaluate the course or the instructors, and why successful completion of the course does not result in enrolment for the MNR's automated licencing system.

Given the decision to expand turkey hunting to the fall, which means more seminars and more generation of cash, it just seems to me that the OFAH and the MNR should be addressing these questions.

These are not whacko questions, and it should not be necessary to ask them. They are questions that should have answers, voluntarily, up front, on the OFAH web site.
 
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The OFAH was/is the driving force behind the reintroduction of Wild turkeys. Without them there would be no hunting oppertunities. Since they started the whole mess they put themselves in a position where they could control things. They did most of the work and the MNR was just along for the ride. Since ther were hundreds of thousands of people who had their licenses already and since there were real safety concerns(go to the article section and read about the father who shot his son) they decided to have a separate course. I imagine eventually the turkeystuff will be rolled into the general hunting course.

About being jammed, boy a non-profit organization trys to save money by holding large classes and you get down on them. Would itnot be ore of a waste oof money to have smaller classes. Hmmm maybe the large classes is what keeps the price down.

yes they are making money. Yes they are finally reaping their rewrds for investing a lot of time and effort before anyone even thoought of turkey hunting. Just like they invested time and money to re-introduce elk to Ontario. #### like this aint cheap.

Learn about the organization and all it does before you begrudge them any benefit from their work
 
cdngunner,

I agree that the OFAH is supposed to be a non-profit organization and I recognize their work.

I just want the OFAH and the MNR to answer some basic questions. So far, I have enumerated those questions twice. Some of them have nothing to do with how much money the OFAH is making, and the ones that do involve basic accountability.

If it is your position that the OfAH and the MNR shouldn't have to answer these questions, because the OFAH's past history gives it the right to do whatever the hell it wants, then we disagree. If you do think that they should answer the questions, I don't understand the point of your post..

Could I have the temerity to ask what your psoition is? Do you think that the OFAH and the MNR should provide the answers to these questions to the hunting community, or answers to at least some of them, or not?
 
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cdngunner,

I'd like to add one thing.

As someone who completed a Hunter Ed course in January, where the issues relating to turkey hunting could have been covered along with issues relating to hunting for moose, deer and other game, I am having a lot of trouble understanding why I had to attend a turkey course in February.

My Hunter Ed instructor couldn't explain this. In fact, he didn't even try.

So maybe you can.

Having spent two days taking a Hunter Ed course that is apparently good enough to get a licence to hunt small game, moose, deer, upland game and waterfowl, why did I have to spend an additional day, representing fully half of the time that the Hunter Ed course takes, to get a licence to hunt turkeys?

I'll tell you what it looks like. It looks like the MNR, which of course charges a licence fee to hunt turkeys, has given the OFAH a right to impose a tax on a tax.

Now here's my take on this. If I have to pay the OFAH to get a licence to hunt turkeys, I'll do it. Myself, I've always understood that contributions to non-profit organizations are supposed to be voluntary, but if the government has given the OFAH the right to force me to make a donation, I'll live with it.

I'd only ask five things in return. Get it over with quick (on a beatiful, warm Saturday in February, with the sun out, I have better ways to spend my time), don't try to get more cash out of me by forcing me to attend what amounts to a trade show, give me a licence number at the end that works, give me a way to evaluate and comment on the course and the instructors, and tell me where my money is going.

Better yet, just deal with this in Hunter Ed and send me a bill for my mandatory donation to the OFAH.

Does that sound unreasonable?.
 
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redge said:
cdngunner,

I'd like to add one thing.

As someone who completed a Hunter Ed course in January, where the issues relating to turkey hunting could have been covered along with issues relating to hunting for moose, deer and other game, I am having a lot of trouble understanding why I had to attend a turkey course in February.
1. so the safety aspects of turkey hunting are stressed(again see article about kid getting shot)
2. so that people who already have a hunting license dont need to redo the whole course.
3. why duplicate

My Hunter Ed instructor couldn't explain this. In fact, he didn't even try.

So maybe you can.

Having spent two days taking a Hunter Ed course that is apparently good enough to get a licence to hunt small game, moose, deer, upland game and waterfowl, why did I have to spend an additional day, representing fully half of the time that the Hunter Ed course takes, to get a licence to hunt turkeys?

I'll tell you what it looks like. It looks like the MNR, which of course charges a licence fee to hunt turkeys, has given the OFAH a right to impose a tax on a tax.
Instructors and halls cost money. You spend $30 for a 90 minute movie these days.

Now here's my take on this. If I have to pay the OFAH to get a licence to hunt turkeys, I'll do it. Myself, I've always understood that contributions to non-profit organizations are supposed to be voluntary, but if the government has given the OFAH the right to force me to make a donation, I'll live with it.

I'd only ask five things in return. Get it over with quick (on a beatiful, warm Saturday in February, with the sun out, I have better ways to spend my time), there are many different dates to get it done try to get more cash out of me by forcing me to attend what amounts to a trade show,Again a little cash for a non-profit give me a licence number at the end that works,sucks to be you, your the odd man out, my brother took it last weekend, no problem give me a way to evaluate and comment on the course and the instructors ok cant argue this point, and tell me where my money is going.See OFAH website and see all the programs your money is providing. Also see all their legal ativities fighting for our rights

Better yet, just deal with this in Hunter Ed and send me a bill for my mandatory donation to the OFAH.

Does that sound unreasonable?.
Click to expand...

Yes there is room for improvement, yes there should be a process for providing feedback.

If it bothers youso much, put your money where your mouth is and do something to change it, or cant you be bothered.

and lastly......

This course was not designed around YOUR needs
 
I'm pretty sure you're just a troll but I guess I"ll bite. I mean you live in Ottawa, the Ministry of Health spends $287,000 a year giving crack pipes to our addicts. I think most of us try not to think where our money is going.

It's real simple, OFAH is a non-profit. That means that all the money they make stays in the corporation. This is what they do, cut and pasted from http://www.ofah.org/About.cfm After you read it, you might want to ask yourself if this is really the organization you want to spend your time criticizing.

Your O.F.A.H. membership helps support these important programs across Ontario:

CONSERVATION

Elk & Wild Turkey Restoration
Atlantic Salmon Restoration
O.F.A.H./Toronto Sportsmen's Show Ringwood Fish Culture Station
Community Stream Steward Program
O.F.A.H./MNR Invading Species Awareness Program
O.F.A.H. Fisheries Research Laboratory EDUCATION & OUTREACH
O.F.A.H. Get Outdoors Youth Clubs & Summer Camps
O.F.A.H. Tackle Share
Ontario Family Fishing Weekends
Ontario Hunter Education Program
O.F.A.H./MNR Wild Turkey Seminars
O.F.A.H. Ontario Angler Awards Program
Women's Outdoors Weekend
Hunter-Farmer Connection

ADVOCACY

Saved fishing and hunting on Crown land
Advocates fair fishing and hunting opportunities
Demands cormorant control programs
Stopped "no discharge of firearms bylaws"
Lobbying for early season bear hunting
Proposed new Sunday gun hunting opportunities
Leading crusade to scrap the long gun registry
Pushed for multiple deer tag system INFORMATION
Angler & Hunter Hotline - members' only section of Ontario OUT OF DOORS magazine
The Angler & Hunter television
O.F.A.H. Annual Conference
O.F.A.H. Zone membership meetings

EDUCATION & OUTREACH

O.F.A.H. Get Outdoors Youth Clubs & Summer Camps
O.F.A.H. Tackle Share
Ontario Family Fishing Weekends
Ontario Hunter Education Program
O.F.A.H./MNR Wild Turkey Seminars
O.F.A.H. Ontario Angler Awards Program
Women's Outdoors Weekend
Hunter-Farmer Connection

INFORMATION

Angler & Hunter Hotline - members' only section of Ontario OUT OF DOORS magazine
The Angler & Hunter television
O.F.A.H. Annual Conference
O.F.A.H. Zone membership meetings
 
cdngunner said:
This course was not designed around YOUR needs
Click to expand...


You're right. It is designed around the OFAH's needs.

The fact that the OFAH is a non-profit organization does not place it above criticism, does not justify how these courses are being conducted and does not justify a complete lack of accountability.

Unless there has been a big change in the last month, the certificate number that the OFAH gave your brother last week will not work on the automated telephone system.

There is not a single reason why this material could not be incorporated into the Hunter Ed programme, with a course being offered online to people who took Hunter Ed before it has been integrated. If Quebec can figure out how to offer it online, how come Ontario can't?

I fully respect the fact that you are a supporter of the OFAH, but it is another thing to support it to the point of defending anything and everything that it does.

You're right, there is room for improvement, plenty of it, but there won't be any until people express their concerns, which is impossible to do in any meaningful way because the OFAH has no mechanism for, and is presumably not interested in, feedback. There also won't be any improvement as long as people take the position that nobody should criticize because it's the OFAH. My Hunter Ed instructor was also a big supporter of the OFAH, indeed encouraged us to join, but apparently he is not so blind in his support that he was prepared to defend how the OFAH is delivering this programme.
 
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I think we should be careful calling redge a troll. He does have 60+ posts on this site. I was also a little miffed about having to take a separate "turkey" hunting course. Although I didn't really mind spending a Sat. taking the course, but I seriously believe it should NOT take all day to teach. I work in the computer industry & would love to see more of this stuff available on-line. I am a member of OFAH & they are NOT infallible. Not everyone is a member of OFAH for their own reasons, but everyone that wants to hunt turkey in Ontario must pay them once for the privilege. I am NOT arguing that OFAH doesn't deserve credit for the Ontario turkey success; they definitely do! Non of this personally effects me as I already have my turkey cert, but I would be interested in seeing this just added to the regular hunters education course, & pared down to the basics for existing hunters. Articulate & frank discussions are one of the reasons I come to this site often. Keep up the good work guy's.

George
 
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There you go...
There is your purpose and mission in life.
Instead of #####ing about, do something about it
Its always easier to complain, isn't it

I, for one, will be looking forward to your reports of your progress.
 
cdngunner said:
There you go...
There is your purpose and mission in life.
Instead of #####ing about, do something about it
Its always easier to complain, isn't it
Click to expand...

If you actually read what I wrote, you will see that I have obtained the contact information for the OFAH, and after insisting, got the contact information for the MNR, and I am writing to both. I would be a lot happier if there was a formal mechanism that enabled participants in this course to express their views, but there isn't. So writing letters, which will probably receive boilerplate replies, is all that one can do. As one person, I don't expect to have any impact whatsoever, but I'm going to do it anyway.
 
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