Somebody 'splain ....

Sharps '74

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Shot my 4" 66-1 in IPSC practice with loads consisting of the Berrys 158 JFP over 4 grs Tite group. That's definitely +P and probably not far from IPSC 170 Major PF. Only a chrono will tell and my next loads will be upped by 5 gr. That load might make Major 170 from a 5" barrel.

Some of the targets were 6" simulated steel plates at 12 m in addition to the standard IPSC targets full and partial, so we aren't talking just 'close & dirty'.

The M66 is a little bear to hang onto but I shoot it better than I do standard velocity .38 Spl. loads. My reasoning is that because it's warmish, I tend to have a better grip on it.

I shoot it better than I do my new 686-6 with the new action and 5" barrel. Could be that I'm still learning the gun ..... I spend considerable time dry firing both at the TV ever evening so it's not lack or familiarity with either.

I do find the new action of the 656-6 to have a longer trigger reset that the short action of the M66.

Any revolvers shooters got a comment based on their experience .... ?
 
I find I shoot my 108mm M19 better than a lot of my other 6” revolvers. A lot of those 6” guns may be more accurate from a bench but it’s the total package that determines how well you will shoot the gun in the real world, not to mention the style of shooting that you do in the real world. Grip size and contour, trigger contour, shape, texture, weight and action feel, sight picture and gun balance all play a part.
 
5.0 gr of TG is a hot load alright. Should get you around 1050fps.

But, if you are looking to make Major, why not use a more appropriate powder? Lots of them come to mind:

HS6
HS7
Universal
N-340
Unique
2400
PowerPistol

Do you have any of those?
 
So that's 4.0gr of Titegroup under a 158gr jacketed bullet in a .38 Special case out of a 4" revolver that's almost making IPSC major?
 
If Major is 170, then you need above 1075 fps to make major using a 158 grain bullet. Although we have a big shipment of TG in the loading room, we have never used it basically because Bullseye was always the "gold standard" and we had a lot of it. The TG is there as a reserve. It doesn't go bad. If Ganderite says that 5.0 grains of TG will give you 1050 with a 158 then 4.0 grains won't even have you playing handball against the dirty outside wall of the gymnasium of Major.

I think that in the Mexican San Miguel/QUeretaro IPSC rules (which are not the World IPSC or Canada IPSC rules) we had Major at 175, where it was 40 years ago when Rulebook One came out. It makes the .380 Cal a MINOR caliber which is fine with us because in the real world of gunfighting the 9 or .38 Super using non-expanding bullets would be minor. In the "Big Boy" P.P.C. matches Major caliber is at 180 and that's fluid simply because we don't so much actually chrono loads but we instead work in some Pepper Poppers set to fall with a center hit from a 180 PF loading into each course which HAS to be knocked down. I normally load up around 200 PF (a 160 grain Lee SWC @ 1250 fps -- say 8.5 grains of Blue Dot in a .38 Special case in .357 remarked revolvers with a 6 inch barrel) for those matches.

A 60 round P.P.C. shot with loads like that can give you a hamburger hand, but that's part of the fun. In the San/Qro P.P.C. course, we cut out a lot of "chaff" we didn't like in the original course and put in some stuff we did like. "Sitting", for example, with 3 or 4 guys advancing on you firing full-auto AK's or AR's just isn't going to work. All the forced left hand shooting (20% of the original course) also just didn't strike us as realistic. We kept the 6 shots left hand at 25 but changed it out at 50 yards. We did leave in the 24 shots at 50 yards -- even though it represents 40% of the shots fired and most encounters are closer up -- simply because you need to be able to shoot to hit at 50 and it's a "boys from the men" separator. An "ideal" course it is not, but it is fun and we shot this course regularly and had many matches although the "Big Boy" variant was done just a few times because it's harder to organize obviously since down here the "big" loads need to be in .38 Special cases so it's a reloader's game only.

We talked (and joked) a lot about shooting a "Big Boy" .38 Super-Snubby match using just the 2.5 inch .357 remarks (Pythons, Model 19's and 66's and 686's) but never did it. Although the Super-Snubby course is just 30 rounds instead of 60 I think having 5 or 6 people around you on the line firing the short barrel guns with big loads would leave one sufficiently concussed as to not want to do it again for a while. It's bad enough with the longer barrels.

Normal SMA/QRO. P.P.C. (Big Boy mod changes noted.) Open to revolvers or autos in 6 shot strings only. We don't care if you load 7 shots in the auto mags but there are penalties for "extra shots". (Snubby and Super-Snubby courses are only 30 shots and are different.)

MINIMUM POWER FACTOR: 120 BIG BOY POWER FACTOR: 180 MINIMUM (Higher recommended)

Stage 1:
PPC B-18 Target or B-27. 10 yards, 12 shots. Draw and fire 6 shots, reload and fire 6 in 18 seconds. 120 points possible.
(Big Boy Mod: Draw and fire 6, reload and fire 5 and one shot on the Pepper Popper at same distance which MUST fall. Popper almost in line to target, just to the side.)

Stage 2:
PPC B-18 Target or B-27. 15 yards, 6 shots. Draw and fire 6 shots in 10 seconds. 60 points possible.
(Big Boy Mod: Draw and fire 5, and fire the last shot on the 10 yard Pepper Popper which must fall. Popper almost directly in line with target, just to the side.)

Stage 3:
PPC B-18 or B-27 Target. 25 yards, 18 shots. 60 second time limit. Starting "hands on barricade" fire 6 shots "left hand firing but supported" from left side of barricade. Reload behind barricade. Fire 6 shots right hand barricade. Reload behind barricade. Fire 6 shots covering behind barrel or table beside barride. 180 points possible.
(Big Boy Mod: On the final string, the last shot should be placed on the Pepper Popper at 10 yards almost in line with the target, which must fall.)

Stage 4:
PPC B-18 or B-27 Target. 50 yards, 24 shots. 120 second time limit. Fire 6 shots freestyle standing from behind the barrel or table beside barricade. Move behind barricade to reload and fire 6 shots freestyle right side barricade. Reload behind barricade and fire 6 shots covering behind the barrel/table beside barricade. Reload kneeling behind barrel/table and then fire 6 shots prone beside barrel/table.
(Big Boy Mod: Last round of the last stage to be shot at 10 yard Popper in line with target but just to one side, which must fall.)

Classifications: (from a possible 600 points)

570 to 600 points: High Master. (Although Castlebravo and I have shot above 570, we never did it twice in a row at matches. Gotta be twice.)
540 to 569 points: Master. (Castlebravo and I are regularly around 565 and have earned the pin. Two others are one match away right now.)
480 to 539 points: Expert. (We have a few of those between the two clubs.)
420 to 479 points: Sharpshooter. (Higher population found at this level.)
360 to 419 points: Marksman. (Quite a few of those around.)
359 points or less: Novato or Novice. (Nobody wants to be there.)
After your first match you are "placed" but require two consecutive scores inside a class to move up. Beginners or unknowns start as Novice. Anyone good enough to be above "novice" in generally going to be known to us. Anyway, if a "novice" wins the match more power to him. He takes the match win trophy. Lower class medallions cost us 40.00 pesos, and although they look nice, they aren't worth cheating over.

Although we intend to make up plastic badges in different colors with the "Master or Expert or Sharpshooter, etc., etc." printed on them to distribute to the shooters, we have not got there yet. Another probably more important badge would be the "500 Club" badge. Although we don't have those yet either, we know everyone who will get one. Shoot an "over 500 score" a couple of times in a row and there you are. You're in the 500 Club. We'll let you stand at the bar in the Queretaro Club instead of go sit at a table. Like "wow".

Shooters practicing the P.P.C. course at the San Miguel club.
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There is only one 6 shot string shot with the left hand (supported) and it's at 25 yards.
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Notes on the course:

(a) In the case a shot misses the Pepper Popper, the R/0 will select a round from shooter's available spare ammo to reshoot the Popper without score but to actually see it fall.

(b) The standing 6 shots at 50 came from a story told to a group of us around 1997 by Stan Levine, a 1st day survivor of the invasions of Tarawa, Iwo Jima and Okinawa about at Tarawa where he witnessed a Marine Officer make standing shots using his M1 Garand in waist high water in the lagoon to kill a Japanese machine gun crew shooting up the men wading toward the palm log seawall. You might have to make a standing shot or two if caught in the open at an uncomfortable distance -- and it's a real "men from the boys" separator.

(c) We call it "Big Boy P.P.C." because after 60 rounds of 200 P.F. ammo, generally, we're all whining like little boys. The course makes one start to believe that rubber grips might not be all that "girlie".

(d) Other course mods:
- the 2/3 time SMA/QRO P.P.C. Cut the time limits by 1/3. This makes it more exciting. Hard on the novices.
- the 1/2 time SMA/QRO P.P.C. Cut the time limits in half. Even more exciting. Tough on revolver shooters who can't speedload quick.
- a 1/2 time SMA/QRO "Big Boy" P.P.C. Never been tried. I want to be there when we do it. Sure to be a circus.

The 50 yard stage often has some shooters falling behind. One shooter is still firing over the barrel/table while the others have gone prone. Yes, we allow mats. (Bring your own, the Club doesn't supply them). Castlebravo from Queretaro Club is R.O.ing this San Miguel Club practice. He often uses an 8 3/8 inch Model 27 (marked as a Model 23) or an 8 inch Python (marked as Python Target) which he wears in a crossdraw holster "Lee Van Cleef style".
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5.0 gr of TG is a hot load alright. Should get you around 1050fps.

But, if you are looking to make Major, why not use a more appropriate powder? Lots of them come to mind:

HS6
HS7
Universal
N-340
Unique
2400
PowerPistol

Do you have any of those?

Power Pistol has been recommended to me. A 158 gr bullet with any powder needs 1080 too make 170 PF.

I've got Unique on hand and the other powders you mention are available. I know from past experience that 7.5 grs Unique under a 158 gr bullet made Major on the old Cooper "Power Pendulum" and later chrono from a 4" barrel. It was a bear to hang on to in a K frame.

I'm going to work up to heavier loads incrementally not so much for the sake of the gun but my comfort zone and recoil tolerance. This is where the larger L frame gun will have the edge. For either gun, I want to use .38 Spl. brass for ease of reloading with speed loaders.

So far my old K frame guns just feel 'right' in my hands compared to the new L frame. I've never had the pleasure of shooting one of the older models.
 
A good friend of mine came within a penalty of winning the BC IPSC Revolver Provincials not long ago shooting minor with a 686 and 38spl cases. The Revolvers are extremely accurate and he demonstrated you could win revolver using minor loads. The secret is to shoot A's. He now spends his time in Cowboy Action and IDPA. Making major with 38/357 can be painful over a long match. Just saying.

I should add I used a 200 gr lead bullet chasing majpr. Th bullet reduced the felt recoil but it still hurt after 90 rounds shooting the old IDPA Classifier.

Take Care

Bob
 
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I shot a lot of Major IPSC loads (7.5 Unique/158 LSWC) in a 4" M66 back when and it was hard on both me and the gun. Used to win top "B" class against the autos and always Top Revolver.

I may focus on doing just what you said - shoot a lot of A's as quickly as I can. I shot into 'A' class with a 9mm Hi-Power, so I know it can be done. Dave Westerhout of South Africa became World IPSC Champ shooting a Hi-Power against the reigning .45 ACPs. His practice was to start at 25 yds and advance, shooting on the move up to 7 yds. After that, it became the standard technique.

I'm not all that keen on beating up myself and the gun as I used to be. Getting older and smarter ..... ? In practice I regard anything less than an 'A' as a miss. If I can't achieve that in practice, I'm not likely to do it in a match.

I would like to work up a Major PF load for my 686-6 5" just for the hell of it. 5 grs TG ought to do it with 158 gr. Should make a nice LR gun to play with.
 
Sharps 74 if you know someone who will cast you the 358430 bullet 5.3 gr of Unique gets you to 180ish pf with a lot less pain. My WW alloy bullet drops at 204 gr. Now that is out of a 4.3" Ruger. Your 5" gun should get there with a bit less powder. The bullet is a killer on California Jack Rabbits I am told. LOL

Take Care

Bob
 
A good friend of mine came within a penalty of winning the BC IPSC Revolver Provincials not long ago shooting minor with a 686 and 38spl cases. The Revolvers are extremely accurate and he demonstrated you could win revolver using minor loads. The secret is to shoot A's. He now spends his time in Cowboy Action and IDPA. Making major with 38/357 can be painful over a long match. Just saying.

I should add I used a 200 gr lead bullet chasing majpr. Th bullet reduced the felt recoil but it still hurt after 90 rounds shooting the old IDPA Classifier.

Take Care

Bob

It seems like if you're shooting revo division nowadays, you might as well shoot minor, because you can use an 8-shot 9mm (or .38 short colt if you're a weirdo) versus a 6-shot for major. Everyone shot minor 8-shots last provincial.
 
It seems like if you're shooting revo division nowadays, you might as well shoot minor, because you can use an 8-shot 9mm (or .38 short colt if you're a weirdo) versus a 6-shot for major. Everyone shot minor 8-shots last provincial.

The eight shot is allowed in IPSC not IDPA. I know from talking to folks in the US more than a few revolver shooters left the Division with the change rather than invest in the new 8 shot guns. One of our shooters here in Terrace made the move to 6 shot 9MM and quite enjoys the Division still. He shoots his six shooter when he shoots IDPA. He has fun in both which is what it is all about anyway.

Take Care

Bob
 
The eight shot is allowed in IPSC not IDPA. I know from talking to folks in the US more than a few revolver shooters left the Division with the change rather than invest in the new 8 shot guns. One of our shooters here in Terrace made the move to 6 shot 9MM and quite enjoys the Division still. He shoots his six shooter when he shoots IDPA. He has fun in both which is what it is all about anyway.

Take Care

Bob

One of our crew shoots a .38 Short Colt with moon clips. It would be fine if he learned to count his rds to avoid that painful "Click" on the 9th trigger pull.

Yeah, 'twas a time a six shot revolver was the norm in IPSC. This is why IDPA is a better game in some ways. 18 rds max in a CoF makes it "revolver friendly". A 32 rd max IPSC CoF may offer a lot of shooting, but .....

I enjoyed shooting a revolver in IDPA locally until it died a painful death due to mismanagement and personality clashes. I'd like to see it up and running again.

Having been in on the ground floor since it's early days as "Combat Pistol Shooting", it's been sad to watch it morph into what is it today. Impractical holsters, impractical/unrealistic CoF, rules up the hoop, lowered PFs, etc., etc.

No wonder Cooper ended up walking away, no longer wanting his name associated with the game.
 
What’s stopping you from starting up IDPA in your area again? The rules don’t prevent you from shooting high-PF loads from 6-shot revolvers, with a holster you like, in a CoF you’ve designed.
 
What’s stopping you from starting up IDPA in your area again? The rules don’t prevent you from shooting high-PF loads from 6-shot revolvers, with a holster you like, in a CoF you’ve designed.

You're right. First thing I have to do is get myself qualified as an SO. All of our previous SOs have melted away, not even going into IPSC.

That speaks volumes. The last IDPA Director we had told us his priorities were his family, Volunteer Fire Department, Search & Rescue, Ski Patrol, IDPA dead last. He was never a member of IDPA International as he "didn't like to compete"!

As for Major revolver loads in IPSC, been there - done that. Lots of work and practice to endure the recoil and hard on the gun. Easiest way would be with a revolver whose calibre starts with the number '4' and uses moon clips.
 
I'm not sure that the Major/Minor debate has as much relevance today as it did 40 years ago. Now that, apparently, the modern high-velocity hollowpoints have calibers like the 9x19 delivering reliable stopping power, why beat yourself up? According to various sources, Massad Ayoob for example, many U.S. Law Enforcement Agencies are switching back to the 9 mm from the .40 or .45 simply because it's working fine now at stopping fights. So why beat up the guns? Why force the people to endure the recoil and fight the flinch? From that point alone, just having a minimum Power Factor like, say 150, in any match should be fine. Supposedly the Hornady 135 grain Critical Duty +P shoots out at 1,110 fps so that's a 150 Power Factor. Fine, it's probably enough. Leave it there and move on. Or even just use 125 as a minimum. If a person can shoot a 125 PF load he or she can easily come up to a 150 PF loading in an emergency, it's not that much different.

However, Mexico (as usual) remains 30 to 40 years in the past -- something I truly like about it -- and besides never having adopted feminism, the LGBT movement, the welfare silliness and the unemployment insurance safety net or the high taxes (although no doubt AMLO would like to) and the desire to have every facet of life "insured" -- they also never have relaxed their rules against hollowpoints. In Mexico, we're really 40 years in the past. A good cast semi-wadcutter is often the best bullet one can come up with in any quantity and it won't get one thrown in jail if discovered in your vehicle in quantity in a roadblock -- provided all your other paperwork is in order -- as a 50 box of hollowpoints might. No matter what the caliber, hollowpoint bullets are illegal and even if they are loaded in .380 cases, you are in the felony area and not misdemeanor.

Thus, Mexican Combat shooters are better off using raw force to achieve reliable stopping power rather than relying on science. Very early-on, we decided to not bother using chronographs to register loads and instead to use "range props" that simply would not respond to light loads to establish the power floor. In a bowling pin match, a regular 10-pin bowling pin set 2.5 or 3 feet from the back edge of the table isn't going to reliably leave the table with a power factor hit of under 200 and with a torn up wooden table top (instead of stainless steel like at Second Chance) a 225+ hit is definitely better. When one is restricted to the .380 and the .38 Special case to achieve this barn-burning performance it quickly becomes clear that the only Automatic Pistols that might deliver it would be the Coonans. The .380's can barely make it up to a 170 Power Factor, and this out of a 6-inch longslide. Not enough poop!

A 160 Lee SWC at 1350 fps out of a 6 inch barrel is a 216 Power Factor. A 170 grain SWC at 1350 out of the same gun is a 229 and really is more effective. A 202 grain SWC at 1250 is 250 and works great! It has no long-range accuracy which kills that bullet as a good "all around use" bullet but a bowling pin at 7 yards can only quiver in fear of the smack that's coming.

We tried to keep things "reasonable" and made our Major Power Factor for most matches a pleasant 180. A 200 grain bullet at 900 fps (something one could safely attain out of a Post-1957 K-38 with relative ease and safety using 2400 powder) was quite pleasant to shoot in a heavier revolver and qualified as Major. It just was not as accurate as a lighter SWC would be and it was kind of "gamey" to use such a concoction. I generally used a Lee 160 grain SWC at 1200 using a load of Green Dot in .38 cases that, IIRC, was 7.0 grains. Not a safe load to use in a regular .38 Special, this was used in either my .38 Heavy Duty or my Model 28 marked 23. For general practice and "fooling around" it was powerful enough. For Bowling pins 2.5 feet from the edge of the table it was sufficient, barely.

And it still beat up my hand. (Both my Heavy Duty and my Model 28/23 are in a safe not far from here and I should be visiting them tomorrow night. I salvitate in anticipation, as they must be also just sitting there awaiting Daddy's permanent return so I can shoot the crap out of them once again.)

My Model 28/23 was my main Combat Gun from 2012 until I left Mexico. I was unsure I would be able to get it back, but might now hope to be seeing it tomorrow night. I hope he still has the 4 SL-Variant N-frame speedloaders that went with them....
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My fantastic .38 Heavy Duty -- top right in this photo -- is also sitting in the same safe and is now owned by the same fellow. I can't wait to see the two revolvers again. Well, and him too, of course....
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