someone with a scale and a Lee dipper 1.6CC

plinker 777

plinker 777

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Hey Guys, I'm loading .44 Rem Mag with a Lee load all. I'm using a 240 grain plated bullet and IMR 4227 powder. Charts that I have state that with this powder and bullet configuration I should be using between 22 and 24 grains of powder.
I don't have a scale, but how many grains of this powder are in a 1.6 CC Lee dipper when used properly...and a 'heaped' dip?

*my digital scale isn't sensitive enough*
 
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Density of powder changes from lot to lot quite a bit. That's why charging cases by weight is more accurate than volume.
Someone can tell you how much of their IMR4227 weighs at 1.6cc but not how much your IMR4227 weighs.

The Lee dipper chart shows a 1.6cc scoop as throwing 20.8gr of IMR 4227.
But for example it says the 1.0cc is supposed to throw 13.0gr but my records show 13.8gr on my scale with my jar of powder.

In short; buy a scale. You don't need a high-end $200 scale. I have a $40 Lee scale that's quite finicky and sometimes frustrating to use but with patience it is accurate.

I do find the Lee dippers somewhat limiting for pistol reloading because of the tiny range from min to max and the relatively course range of the dippers. I use the dippers a lot for reduced loads in rifle with cast bullets.
Trying to regulate how much is in a heaped scoop is also a very bad idea. You realistically have little to no control over exactly how much is heaped so your loads can be all over the map.

If your IMR4227 is similar to mine, and we use a similar scooping technique (which we may not since I use the method Lee says to not use but I find it far more consistent) then I'd guess that a 1.6cc scoop is throwing around 22gr of powder; give or take 0.5gr.

The method I use for the scoops is to dip it and fill it, then tap the side and let the powder settle into the scoop. This drops the level below the rim of the scoop. I then redip to top it off, tap it until it goes level (from grains falling off, not settling at this point) and then pour that into a case. The Lee instructions that came with my set said specifically not to use this method but didn't say why. I find the Lee method of just leveling the top with a straight edge to be far more inconsistent; sometimes as bad as +/- 5% (so on a 50gr charge it'll be ~48-53gr) where as my method is usually +/- 1% (same 50gr charge will be ~49.5-50.5gr) no matter what size dipper I use. Maybe that's also why I get more in a dipper compared to the charts.
 
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The chart that came with my dipper set says the 1.6cc dipper delivers 20.8 grains, the 1.9cc delivers 24.7 and the 2.2cc delivers 28.6gr.
 
Cheers guys :cheers: I believe that I am ok, but I will get a scale next week. I have been dipping the 'scoop' into the powder and tapping it to bring the level below the rim of the dipper to avoid a spill when charging the case.I have not been double dipping or topping up etc. Having said that, I am confident, and also a bit shocked that if someone where to try, one could easily 'pack' more than 24 grains of IMR 4227 into the supplied 1.6 CC dipper. I think I've found the reason for S&W 629 Kabooms!?
I'm also a little disappointed that a leveled dipper is below the minimum load. Once I get the scale, I can confidently and consistently shoot 23 grain loads. With the dipper and proper technique all anyone could say is that they are shooting 'somewhere' between 18 and 24 grains. (24 would not naturally fit in the dipper)=Somewhere below minimum, to at max loads. Not ideal.
Can someone pack the powder into the scoop to learn how many grains of IMR 4227 could actually fit the 1.6CC dipper? I'll bet more than 24 grains (S&W probably have a 25% engineering catastrophic failure mindset...24grains + 25%= failure).
 
There are no standards in North America for how far above standard operating pressure firearms are proofed at. In Europe there are standards but on this side of the pond every manufacturer is allowed to make up their own standards but do so knowing they can be sued at a moments notice. There is a difference between operating pressure, proofing pressure, and a pressure that would cause a catastrophic failure. The precise pressure for a catastrophic failure relies a lot of microscopic faults in the metal so can't really be calculated as a general value. Proofing pressures range from 125% to 140% from what I've read but that's not confirmed in anyway and I don't know what standard S&W uses.

Firearms are also only proofed once or twice per chamber generally. Some firearms may be able to handle a steady diet of proof rounds and not show any detrimental effects while others may catastrophically fail after one more proof round than the factory tested with. There's no way to tell.

Also a 25% overcharge of powder will not produce 25% higher pressure. It would likely be much higher than that. The curve of a graph showing powder charge and pressure produced isn't linear. Different powders respond different in different cartridges to different amounts of change. Generally it's an exponential growth on the scale so a 125% pressure load may be reached with a 5-10% overcharge of powder. There are also countless tolerances and factors that can effect the pressure. I have rifles that are above pressure below published max loads and rifles that are below pressure at published max loads. That's why loads need to be worked up in your firearm with your components.

If the data shows a range of 22-24gr and the Lee data chart shows 20.8gr, from personal experience I can't see it as being able to throw a charge over max if levelled (don't heap it). That said I still don't like using Lee scoops without verifying what they throw on a scale just for my records.

If you're using mixed brass it can get weird as well as different brands have different volumes. I was loading .357 mag 0.5gr under max and some of the cases stuck in the cylinder while others ejected properly. The cases that stuck were all heavier than the rest when empty meaning they had more brass and thus less internal volume (since the external is the same). Instead of sorting my brass for my plinking loads I just dropped the load another 0.5gr and didn't have a problem after that. It shows how much pressure can change from a very small factor though.

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As an aside regarding your S&W revolver; most places I look say if you shoot a steady diet of full power .44 mag in a S&W it will wear out more quickly than other more strongly built revolvers (like Rugers). I've heard everywhere from 2000 to 10,000rnds before the revolver might need a tune-up. I have a model 19 which is a .357 in a K-frame and it has similar comments and S&W makes mostly .38 special revolvers on K-frames now-a-days. I don't recall if the 629 is just a stainless copy of the 29 or if they beefed it up or not so I may be wrong if it was made stronger.
 
I shot a bunch of these loads today and I have to say it was quite anti-climactic. I'm shooting a 5" 629 and to me this load felt like warm .45acp rounds, I also had 3 failures to fire due to bad primers!? (CCI). What I found very interesting was that there was unburnt powder in the cylinder after firing! That tells me that 21 grains of IMR 4227 (1.6 CC's) is too much powder as it isn't all burnt in the time it takes the bullet to leave the barrel. (When shooting black powder, if this happens I know I've hit the ceiling of the powder charge for the rifle and need to cut it back some...otherwise I'm just literally blowing powder down range.)
Fortunately, I also brought some factory .44 Rem mag with me to satisfy the itch...should I be switching powders to something different? Can you guys recommend a powder that resembles whatever it is factory ammo is charged with?
 
...and be very careful with respect to how much you crimp a plated bullet. Magnum loads call for a heavy crimp(usually) and depending on what brand of bullet you use, you can compromise the integrity of the surface(cut thru the plating) before the round is even in the gun, resulting on separation before the bullet has left the barrel, and possibly small shards of copper in your hands/face. I learned this the hard way a few years ago. Personally I will not shoot a plated bullet in a magnum caliber unless it has a cannelure, but thats just me.
 
the way I was told to use a lee dipper is scoop, then skim off with a business card. No heaped scoups. The dippers do work good if a consistent style is used. The Lee load book has a good article about this. I used to use the lee dipper back in the day with the lee loader but haven't until more recently when I dug them out for use with Trail boss witch meters very poorly.
 
camster said:
I'm not sure I'd reload anything without a proper scale....
Click to expand...

I thought about this nervous nelly anecdote, and then about the many thousand Lee loader kits that pleased folks for decades...

Regarding your trial; the dipper demonstrated less than your load, (as mentioned) it may come out dirty. Adding more powder is not just inherent bang, the volume it occupies affects things too...might lead to better overall performance(cleaner).
 
Thanks camster, I'm on the hunt for a scale as that IS the only way to ensure the load as being accurate if one is going to push the envelope. Once I have a scale I have every intention to load to max according to cross referenced materials to learn if that cleans the situation or is more wasteful of powder and dirty. Until then, I'll stick with the underpowered powderpuff load 1.6 CC's gives. (even factory is significantly more powderful, wish I had a chrony.)
 
For the IMR4227 that I've used 21.5gr is 1.77cc, 22.1gr is 1.83cc and 23.6gr is 1.90cc. And 23.6gr makes for a compressed barely able to get the proper COAL load with a 240gr Campro.
Note- there isn't a linear relationship with my records as there was more than one different lot number of powder and they do vary in density.

Using my current batch at 1.60cc should weigh 19.44gr which is quite a bit under Hodgdon's published starting load of 22.0gr. I find the 21.5gr load works fine with a good thump.
Also, I've found IMR4227 to leave a lot of soot and residue at any load less than upper range. And unless the bullet isn't seated deep enough there is no way I could cram enough into a case to exceed the published maximum.
But who knows, a different lot# could be denser.

The FTF's sound weird, never had that happen with CCI or any primer for that matter except when the mainspring tension screw came loose. I'd pop the grips and check yours.
 
plinker 777 said:
Thanks camster, I'm on the hunt for a scale as that IS the only way to ensure the load as being accurate if one is going to push the envelope. Once I have a scale I have every intention to load to max according to cross referenced materials to learn if that cleans the situation or is more wasteful of powder and dirty. Until then, I'll stick with the underpowered powderpuff load 1.6 CC's gives. (even factory is significantly more powderful, wish I had a chrony.)
Click to expand...

Volumetric vs weight...both fair, but given the various shapes powder comes in(and standardized published data), weight is far easier to use with precision with a single tool. Once you get a load dialed in, make your own dipper.
Chrony is what I'm needing next for m'own fun.
 
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Have been using 21 gr. of 4227 under BB 240 gr. rnfp cast bullets for several hundred rounds with no complaints.
Will check my notes but iirc speed is about 1100+
Only dipper I have is a 4.3 so can't do tests weights, sorry
 
Update. I bought a Hornady digital scale. :)

For those who are hand loading like me, you'll be comforted to know that when using the dipper I've determined that it would be near impossible to overcharge the cartridge using this powder. When I packed and heaped the powder into the dipper the very most I could physically fit in and on was 23 grains of IMR 4227, the max loadout is 24 grains when under a 240 grain bullet. (pistol load, not the magnum rifle load) A regular 'dip' will get between 19.8-21 grains and will average fairly consistently at 20. (point) some odd grains.

With the benefit of the scale I loaded 6 rounds to 23.9 grains of IMR 4227 to learn how they compare to factory loads and to see how clean the powder burns off.
 
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