Something a little different

Musketfire

Musketfire

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Hello, I thought you gentlemen might enjoy this, normaly I would only post this in the Antiques section but Because of the long service life of these rifles I thought she also would fit in this section.

Single shot bolt action French 11mm Gras rifle.

These were standard issue with some countries right up into ww1, and the Greeks used them until the end of ww2 which is a fairly respectable service record, I think it speaks well of the strength of the origional design.



This example here has a mismatched bolt, and shows all the nicks and dings on her stock that would reflect her life of adventure;) that aside is quite tight and has a excellent bore.

Presently shes stripped and all her metal parts are soaking in breakfree.

I'm cleaning her up and doing some minor repairs I look forward to learning all her particularities.




MyGras-003.jpg

MyGras-002.jpg

MyGras-001.jpg
 
Drachenblut said:
Very nice example. What is the date on the rifle, and does it have any unit markings?
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As Im cleaning the goop and filth off of her some numbers are coming up on the left base of the stock.

Shes of the pattern 1874 made in 1881.

I will post pictures of the stock numbers when they come up better.

I'm cleaning the stock with turpentine and a rough rag, so its taking some time.

Looking around on the net I found some accounts of whole Russian units being equipped with these in ww1 before the Nagants became available in numbers.

It seems there were close to a million of these made so I presume many nations had these in their arsenals at one time or another.
 
eos said:
There seem to be few 11mm models here though I have seen several 1874/80/14 in 8mm Lebel. I owned one of those at one time but was not brave enough to fire it. :redface:
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[

Here's a shot of some of the ##s on the stock I dont know if there regimental or just stock numbers??

From what Ive read "so far" France converted a bunch to 8mm lebel before ww1 and that was successful...some even had tube magazine's installed.

Greece and Russia both kept it in its original single shot 11mm chambering.

I wouldn't fire smokeless in ANY arm designed to fire Black powder cartridges "though many do"

If I had one of the 8mm conversions I would reload using ffg and shoot it -if the rifle was in good shape- I dont know how good black powder 8mm rounds would preform

These are very well built arms.
 
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My suggestion is a carefully tuned down smokeless load. Black powder is touchy and will erode your barrel very quickly. My suggestion is find a non-corrosive black powder substitute, or smokeless load. I have a friend who is gearing to load for 11mm Mauser (.43) and that's what he is doing. Consider it.
 
Drachenblut said:
...Black powder...will erode your barrel very quickly. My suggestion is find a non-corrosive black powder substitute, or smokeless load....
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No, it won't. Black powder is not erosive. If you don't clean the barrel, corrosion may result.
Some black powder substitutes are more corrosive than black, if the bore is neglected.
 
Mine is in nicer condition.
Triaq is right. The time honoured system of a funnel in the chamber and a kettle full of boiling hot water is the way to go. My GRAS has an excellent bore, and I have no doubt it fired a LOT of ammo before I bought it.
NOW saying that, some black powder substitutes can be erosive if not cleaned promptly.
Of course the trigger pull is so horrid I sometimes wonder if they had to use a hammer to make it work;) No wonder french firearms don't have a safety. I would use Black powder loads cause it's fun to stink out the guy on the next shooting bench:D
 
Drachenblut said:
I stand corrected. BP is not really my field though.
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Every firearm I have uses black powder;) I havent shot a smokeless round in 10 years.


And Mr John Sukey, what kind of brass do you use??

I have read that the 11mm mauser will not extract on the Gras and has a different neck dimension...

I have also read that the 11mm thompson mg round is based off the gras round...maybe that could be a source of cheaper surplus brass??

After shes all cleaned up and reassembeled Im doing a chamber casting and hopefully Mystic precision will be able to help me out.....one step at a time.

The trigger on this one is fairly good, eons better then my bess and just slightly tighter then my martini


Cheers
 
The 11mm Vickers, not Thompson, ctg was a HV version of the 11mm Gras ctg used in WWI era aircraft MGs. It is a very scarce round. Gras ammo can be made from 348 WCF. The 11mm Mauser ctg is .040" smaller in body size and unsuitable.
The Gras rifle in 11mm was an official arm of the French AF in 1940. They developed a new dummy ctg for it in 1936.
 
What a very nice toy!

I've been looking for one of those for years, never able to lay a hand on one. If her twin sister shows up, do tell, do tell....

I have seen these in photos taken in Algeria and Morocco as late as the 1960s, not as Service rifles but in the hands of locals. I wonder where they get the ammo?

Have fun!
 
SFM was making this round for the French gummint in 1940.
Gevelot was making this ctg for Yemen in 1955.
 
Musketfire, I use NDFS (North Devon Firearms Services) brass Unfortunately my friend retired several years ago and sold the business. Subsequent buyers couldn't make a go of it (three different buyers) even though he set up the machinery each time for them. His shop looked like the Black Hole of Calcutta. (dirt floor, low ceiling). It's really too bad, as he was making among other things, brass for Werndls, Sniders, Martini-Henrys, Gras, !! mm Mausers. Swiss Vetterli's and many others. The reason he sold up was H.M. customs wanted him to file export paperwork for EACH customer! They even accused him of exporting MILITARY ammunition. ie; brass for 11mm mouser and 577-450! They dropped that, since they would have looked silly in court.;)
I believe the only other reasonable source is www.buffaloarms.com which is reformed from other available cases.
 
I am told that Bertram is making this in the wonderful land of OZ, so a Bertram dealer could have it.

There don't seem to be a lot of problems bringing in brass from Oz (I got a little bag of MH stuff from there about a year ago). Describe it as semifinished brass tubes for local manufacture and nobody looks twice.... AND it's honest, which is always a bonus.

I would give Bruno Gross a call up in Fairview, Alberta.... this is actually his bag, as he sez that he stocks all the old stuff. grizzly shooting supply, i think.

Have fun!
 
Quite as usual, John is right!

I keep a broken-down .303 round handy when I look at the price list: just might need a chew on that Cordite!

In the immortal word of Howard the Duck, "WAAAUGH!"
 
Howard the Duck... wow... I grew up with Daffy and Donald. *chuckles* I always wanted to get my hands on a Werndl carbine for my Austrian collection but I don't think I would enjoy the issues with getting brass, making brass and converting cartridges. Just no time.
 
When I was in Denmark, lot of years ago, stopped the motorcycle right outside a big shop, looked at the sign (it was bilingual, Dansk and Deutsche) and just bout jumped outta my skin: only gun shop in Jutland! Went inside and damned near CRIED.

They musta had 50 beautiful WERNDLs... and each one had a solid-steel plug arc-welded into the chamber: DEKOVABEN/DEKOWAFFEN: decorators for those faint-hearted souls who want to look cool but who are unwilling to take the risk of having that dangerous 1867 rifle jump down off the wall and massacre a school or something. They had about 40 more in the back room, fully active.... but those were for export only.

Anybody comes up with a half-decent Werndl at a half-decent price, contact me. I don't mind fooling around with brass. It CAN be done and not much trouble.

Have fun, guys; I'm going for a cry now!
 
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