Something on the "wussy" M1 Carbine

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purple

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My current bedside reading is "The Korean War Pusan to Chosin, An Oral History" by Donald Knox. It describes one incident involving the M2 Carbine in the liberation of Seoul in Sept 1950; "....I saw there was indeed an armed North Korean in the room. When I pulled the trigger of my carbine to spray him, only 1 shot fired. The damned thing had jammed. Fortunately the one round had caught him... This one bullet had hit him in the left buttock, exited his right buttock, and managed to hit his right hand, where it tore off 3 fingers and most of the palm....All I could think about was what that small carbine bullet had done. It was amazing. I had used a carbine in the Pusan perimeter and knew it could be effective when used at full automatic. this was the first time I had seen a single exit wound left by it. I was impressed!"

This account offers a counterpoint to others which reported that the carbine round was too underpowered to penetrate the quilted jackets worn by the Chinese Communists. I've owned a carbine for a long time and never considered using it for hunting. All the same, I wouldn't volunteer to get shot by one, even while wearing a quilted jacket! There are thousands of graves around the world which testify that it was capable of doing the job.

As a footnote, the city of Seoul was liberated twice during the Korean War, once from the North Koreans and again from the Chinese. Hopefully history will not need to record any future liberations.
 
The M1 carbine got a bad rap from many troops in Korea, because they used it to fire on targets too far away with less than spectacular results.
The M1 and its cartridge were designed for close distance shooting, while the full length M1 Garand with it's 30 cal rifle round dealt with more distant targets.
Close combat situations like the one described above, are what the carbine and it's cartridge were built for.
 
From what I understand, the complaints were related to wet, frozen, quilted jackets, at longer ranges, reducing lethality. A .22lr will pop a clean hole through you at close range, make no mistake! I'm sure .30 carbine is more than adequate at the appropriate range, and light and handy to boot.
 
I have also heard stories about it being underpowered. but I also read accounts of soldiers in Germany augmenting the rations with fresh deer. All shot with the carbine.

As I understand the original intention of the carbine, it was to be carried by support troops instead of a pistol (45 1911) because it was more effective and much more accurate in the hands of the average Joe. Late in the war, and in Korea, it was used by infantry. For close in work it would have been very good, just like a SMG would have been good - but with range limitations. The difference between a SMG and a M1 Carbine is that the carbine has nice sights and a good sight radius, making it easy to to try longer shots. In the open Korean countryside, the carbine was the wrong gun.

It compares well to the 357 mag for power, and we all know that is an effective round.

BTW, I have found that the plated 110 gr carbine bullet works very well as a bullet for reloading the 7.62x25. Accuracy in my 1911 is superb.
 
I have a similar book entitled Breakout-The Chosin Reservoir Campaign 1950 by Martin Russ. In this book the Marines considered the M1 carbine unrelaible. Because, they said the cartridge gases were too weak to work the action 100% in the extreme cold during extended combat conditions.
 
Brutus said:
I have a similar book entitled Breakout-The Chosin Reservoir Campaign 1950 by Martin Russ. In this book the Marines considered the M1 carbine unrelaible. Because, they said the cartridge gases were too weak to work the action 100% in the extreme cold during extended combat conditions.
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I could see that, if you were using grease that would freeze up. That applies to most tools, the first time you use them in extreme environments. Look at the germans, that first winter in Russia, ww2.
 
Almost any caliber at close range can be devastating.

The issues apparently with the M1 carbine were that is was not effective at distances and apparently (according to the collector grade book series and it's published US Military reports therein contained) it was not very reliable in battle conditions at all.

Much theory and speculation.
 
The Carbine was a fine rifle. I think the bad rep it has comes from it being issued to too many troops who treated it like the Garand. Going being 300 meters with a Carbine is not going to provide you with excellent ballistic results.

The round it fires is like a .357 magnum on crack, IIRC, so it's definitely potent, but it's also limited with regards to how far you can use it effectively. I'd sure as hell not want to be shot at by one within 150 meters.
 
5440fight said:
I could see that, if you were using grease that would freeze up. That applies to most tools, the first time you use them in extreme environments. Look at the germans, that first winter in Russia, ww2.
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What Travis said is spot on too. In Purple's own account the soldier with the carbine experienced a jam and got off only one single shot at close range.
Tell me what that soldier would have done at the first opportunity in a moment of calm, where he could acquire something else less prone to jamming?
He lived to tell the tale, so I suspect he carried something else for the remainder of his combat tour.
 
Actually one of the most reliable pieces in the Korean winters was the Thompson SMG. By this time they had been replaced in US issue by the M3 "Greasegun", but the Chicoms had a lot of them, all complements of US WW2 aid to the Nationalist Chinese who were run out of mainland China by the Chicoms shortly after the war ended. The Thompson soldiered on into Vietnam where a lot were picked up from the VCs. A US Army officemate of mine in Tampa got one and carried it thru his tour in Vietnam then sold it to another guy before coming home. He said they were in high demand.
 
Well, I'll admit it. I've hunted with an M1 Carbine. Deer, bears and coyotes, gophers and rabbits.

I will also admit, the ranges were never over 100 yards and seldom under 50 yards.

The coyotes were shot close to feedlot areas where more powerful rounds weren't appropriate for the job at hand, with 100 grain hollow point handloads. Explosive is a mild term.

Bears and deer were shot in cornfields and out of tree stands. The M1 with 125grn PSP handloads, loaded accordingly, did great work.

Only one bear ever required a second shot and in all honesty, that was my fault. Even if I had been using a 308 Win, the first shot would only have wounded that bear. Wrong angle, poor judgement on my part.

Purple is right on the M1 Carbine. It isn't a good first choice as a hunting rifle.

When used properly, at the intended ranges for the cartridge's capability, it is very effective for the intended purposes.
 
BUSHMAN79 said:
I think if you were defending yourself within 100 yards, the carbine would be hard to beat. It is so easy to make multiple hits on a target within that range. Most of the complaints about it were from guys treating it as a rifle, not a personal defense weapon.
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Agreed. First, hit them with air support and artillery at a distance, then as they come closer, mgs and rifles, then, when real close, carbines and pistols, finally, if they are picking your pockets, scream, swear, and stick 'em with a bayonet. Don't mix these up, as artillery is bad for everyone, if used in-appropriately.
 
It's been documented that the M1 carbine round did have trouble penetrating heavy winter clothing in Korea. Naturally, this was because they were shooting at ranges that the carbine round wasn't meant for.

Up close, it was a great rifle. At distance, not so much.
 
One advantage M1/2 carbine has is its light weight and compact size. It is a perfect fit for small Asian soldiers where carrying a full size weapon like M1 Garand, BAR, M1919A6 and the likes is a big struggle to them.
 
shredder said:
It's been documented that the M1 carbine round did have trouble penetrating heavy winter clothing in Korea. Naturally, this was because they were shooting at ranges that the carbine round wasn't meant for.

Up close, it was a great rifle. At distance, not so much.
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Personally I would love for someone next winter to buy the heaviest MFing coat they can at Value Village, soak it it water, let it freeze solid (why wait for winter just leave in a freezer over night) and do a M1 carbine penetration test so we can see if old rehashed war stories hold up under the challenge. Sort of like a Mythbusters for small arms, I recall reading the Sten rumour (debunked by Peter Laidler) that it (Sten firing a 9mm) could not pass through a wool great coat, I guess a wool overcoat makes for poor body armour after all. Anyone willing to bust the myth?
 
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