Pffft.. I do it all the time with my 10.22 at 300 on a windy day using sub sonic ammo...
Can't do it with my AR though
LOL
sorting 223 brass/ learned my lesson
- Thread starter crout
- Start date
Pffft.. I do it all the time with my 10.22 at 300 on a windy day using sub sonic ammo...
Can't do it with my AR though
LOL
rnbra-shooter
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- New Brunswick
Hi crout, I have no reason to doubt what you said. If you say you shot a 200 yard "3+1" group that measured .196"/.742", I'll take you at your word - as you rightly say, what's the point of lying?
I will say though that while I believe you that you shot such a group using a Savage 12BVSS (good rifle) with a Shilen barrel (good barrel), that I don't think that sub-0.5" 200yard groups are what can be expected on average. To be more explicit: every sub-1" 5-shot (or more) group at 200 yards group that you fire with your rifle is great, but it likely involves not only skill in shooting and quality in your ammo, but a certain degree of luck too. You'll only know for sure that luck isn't a major factor, when you can shoot a sub-1" 5-shot (or more) 200-yard group much more often than not.
You might find that your load development, and your assessment of your rifle's and your performance, is made easier by approaching it in two steps. I would suggest that you first attempt the seemingly-modest goal of being able to shoot 1/2-MOA or better groups of five shots or more (i.e. 1/2" or less at 100y, 1" or less at 200y, 1.5" or less at 300y) nearly all of the time. All shots count, except that you may declare a "flier" if you do so before you see it on paper (and if you do declare it to be a "flier", you must strike it from your group, even if it turns out to be a good-looking shot). Once you get this down solidly, go ahead and see if you can improve on this 1/2-MOA performance; with good gear, you may well be able to.
So of seven four-shot groups at 200 yards, one measured 0.7" (3 into 0.2"), another measure 1.3" (3 into 0.81"), and five of them were "over an inch". Were all of the seven 4-shot 200 yards groups under 2"?
This actually sounds like reasonably good performance - every group (presumably) under one MOA, with 2 of the 7 groups in the 1/2-MOA neighbourhood. Sounds to me like you're probably getting an honest 3/4 MOA at this point (i.e. you can shoot a 1.5" or smaller 200yard group more or less at will - a performance which BTW, is good enough to win almost any kind of rifle match except for a benchrest match).
There's almost certainly nothing wrong with your scale. Just under 2" at 200 yard, for 8 shots, means that you got just under 1 MOA. Which is a pretty decent group size, when reporting things honestly (i.e. reporting every shot fired; firing 5 or more shots; etc)
Welcome to statistical noise. You had one 5-shot (I assume) group that was about 0.55 MOA, another one that was 0.85 MOA, and another that was 0.43 MOA. It's possible that some of these differences are due to your .005" changes in seating depths, but it's also possible that 100% of the variations were due solely to group-to-group fluctuations. To eventually rule one or the other out, will require quite a few more groups to be fired.
Don't be discouraged though - those 15 shots you fired averaged 1.234" or 0.61 MOA. Which is pretty darn good. Even though you can probably improve upon this, if you never do, you have a rifle/ammo combination that seems to be shooting well enough to win most kinds of rifle matches out there.
0.1 grains of powder is *MOST* unlikely to be the culprit.
Try this (either in real life, or at least as a thought experiment): Load up 25 rounds, exactly the same, using the best load you've found so far. Fire five, 5-shot groups. Measure them. You will find that they are all different sizes, and that the difference from the smallest to the largest to the average will be quite large - even though you know for a fact that every group was fired with *exactly* the same ammo. This is due to statistical "noise".
When you are shooting two groups using *different* loads, you'll need to see changes bigger than this typical statistical "noise", in order for you to be sure that an improvement or worsening is actually "real", or just noise that looks like a real difference. If the difference is less than the "noise", there might be a real difference there, mixed in with the statistical noise; but it will take several groups in order to "filter out" the statistical noise and leave you with the real effect.
I will say though that while I believe you that you shot such a group using a Savage 12BVSS (good rifle) with a Shilen barrel (good barrel), that I don't think that sub-0.5" 200yard groups are what can be expected on average. To be more explicit: every sub-1" 5-shot (or more) group at 200 yards group that you fire with your rifle is great, but it likely involves not only skill in shooting and quality in your ammo, but a certain degree of luck too. You'll only know for sure that luck isn't a major factor, when you can shoot a sub-1" 5-shot (or more) 200-yard group much more often than not.
You might find that your load development, and your assessment of your rifle's and your performance, is made easier by approaching it in two steps. I would suggest that you first attempt the seemingly-modest goal of being able to shoot 1/2-MOA or better groups of five shots or more (i.e. 1/2" or less at 100y, 1" or less at 200y, 1.5" or less at 300y) nearly all of the time. All shots count, except that you may declare a "flier" if you do so before you see it on paper (and if you do declare it to be a "flier", you must strike it from your group, even if it turns out to be a good-looking shot). Once you get this down solidly, go ahead and see if you can improve on this 1/2-MOA performance; with good gear, you may well be able to.
So of seven four-shot groups at 200 yards, one measured 0.7" (3 into 0.2"), another measure 1.3" (3 into 0.81"), and five of them were "over an inch". Were all of the seven 4-shot 200 yards groups under 2"?
This actually sounds like reasonably good performance - every group (presumably) under one MOA, with 2 of the 7 groups in the 1/2-MOA neighbourhood. Sounds to me like you're probably getting an honest 3/4 MOA at this point (i.e. you can shoot a 1.5" or smaller 200yard group more or less at will - a performance which BTW, is good enough to win almost any kind of rifle match except for a benchrest match).
There's almost certainly nothing wrong with your scale. Just under 2" at 200 yard, for 8 shots, means that you got just under 1 MOA. Which is a pretty decent group size, when reporting things honestly (i.e. reporting every shot fired; firing 5 or more shots; etc)
Welcome to statistical noise. You had one 5-shot (I assume) group that was about 0.55 MOA, another one that was 0.85 MOA, and another that was 0.43 MOA. It's possible that some of these differences are due to your .005" changes in seating depths, but it's also possible that 100% of the variations were due solely to group-to-group fluctuations. To eventually rule one or the other out, will require quite a few more groups to be fired.
Don't be discouraged though - those 15 shots you fired averaged 1.234" or 0.61 MOA. Which is pretty darn good. Even though you can probably improve upon this, if you never do, you have a rifle/ammo combination that seems to be shooting well enough to win most kinds of rifle matches out there.
0.1 grains of powder is *MOST* unlikely to be the culprit.
Try this (either in real life, or at least as a thought experiment): Load up 25 rounds, exactly the same, using the best load you've found so far. Fire five, 5-shot groups. Measure them. You will find that they are all different sizes, and that the difference from the smallest to the largest to the average will be quite large - even though you know for a fact that every group was fired with *exactly* the same ammo. This is due to statistical "noise".
When you are shooting two groups using *different* loads, you'll need to see changes bigger than this typical statistical "noise", in order for you to be sure that an improvement or worsening is actually "real", or just noise that looks like a real difference. If the difference is less than the "noise", there might be a real difference there, mixed in with the statistical noise; but it will take several groups in order to "filter out" the statistical noise and leave you with the real effect.
Try this (either in real life, or at least as a thought experiment): Load up 25 rounds, exactly the same, using the best load you've found so far. Fire five, 5-shot groups. Measure them. You will find that they are all different sizes, and that the difference from the smallest to the largest to the average will be quite large - even though you know for a fact that every group was fired with *exactly* the same ammo. This is due to statistical "noise".
When you are shooting two groups using *different* loads, you'll need to see changes bigger than this typical statistical "noise", in order for you to be sure that an improvement or worsening is actually "real", or just noise that looks like a real difference. If the difference is less than the "noise", there might be a real difference there, mixed in with the statistical noise; but it will take several groups in order to "filter out" the statistical noise and leave you with the real effect.
The guy above understands basic stats and makes a useful comment.
When you are shooting two groups using *different* loads, you'll need to see changes bigger than this typical statistical "noise", in order for you to be sure that an improvement or worsening is actually "real", or just noise that looks like a real difference. If the difference is less than the "noise", there might be a real difference there, mixed in with the statistical noise; but it will take several groups in order to "filter out" the statistical noise and leave you with the real effect.
The guy above understands basic stats and makes a useful comment.
rnbra-shooter,
tonnes of good info but i do like to dream and in my dreams i see .25moa groups at 200 yards. practise, practise, practise. i know i can do it i just need to figure out the problem, which i am sure is me. i do need more trigger time as i've probably only shot 400 rounds down the barrel more than half of which are 50gr bullets for gophers.
i use varget and 75gr amax and my brass was all once fired factory loaded.
1.6" was the largest of the 4 shot groups i originaly posted
the last time at the range were 5 shot groups when i changed seating depth and the load i tried to reproduce was the 8 shot.
maybe i'll get some more trigger time tomorrow and see what other frustrating results i can get
tonnes of good info but i do like to dream and in my dreams i see .25moa groups at 200 yards. practise, practise, practise. i know i can do it i just need to figure out the problem, which i am sure is me. i do need more trigger time as i've probably only shot 400 rounds down the barrel more than half of which are 50gr bullets for gophers.
i use varget and 75gr amax and my brass was all once fired factory loaded.
1.6" was the largest of the 4 shot groups i originaly posted
the last time at the range were 5 shot groups when i changed seating depth and the load i tried to reproduce was the 8 shot.
maybe i'll get some more trigger time tomorrow and see what other frustrating results i can get
rnbra-shooter
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- New Brunswick
crout - do dream the dream, of course. But until you get there, don't kick yourself too terribly hard if you're "only" shooting (an honest) 0.6 MOA.
My first target rifle (M70, .308W, MacLennan barrel etc) shoots an honest 0.6 MOA (5-shot groups); somehow it seems to be able to shoot out-shoot most so-called 1/4 minute rifles....! Obviously it does not outshoot a real 1/4 minute rifle - such beasts really do exist, and they are wondrous things. But "so-called 1/4 minute rifles" are much more common, and never seem to actually shoot 1/4-minute on a range, at least none that I've ever been on... ;-)
If you sort your brass or your bullets by weight, one interesting thing you can do is to identify and set aside a few of the extreme outliers - say, the very heaviest or lightest bullets or pieces of brass you have. It is interesting to carefully load them up, as best as you can, with an ordinary good accurate load. Some day, after you have completed firing of a group with your "best-matched" good ammo, fire a shot with your "intentionally-most-mismatched" ammo. Oftentimes you'll find that it goes straight into the group. Which is a nice way to learn that perhaps sorting your brass into 0.1 grain "bins" really isn't so important; perhaps 1-grain "bins" is plenty good...!?
Another thing which usually doesn't matter very much at all, especially at short range (300 yards and less) and even mid range (500 & 600 yards), are small variations in powder charge weight. Try loading five rounds with 0.3 grains less powder and five rounds with 0.3 grains more powder than your standard "best known load" (is using a .308W, make it 0.5 grains more and 0.5 grains less). Fire a five shot group with your "best known load", then fire five shots with your "lighter" load right into the same group, then fire your five shots of "heavier". If you own a chrono, it's nice to do all this over your chono. Once you see that all fifteen shots go nicely into a group, with no apparent changes from these powder charge weight changes, you can get a bit more comfortable about throwing your powder charges instead of weighing each one. FWIW I throw the charges on the .308W ammo I use for 300y-600m shooting, and this shoots well enough to be able to win a national championship match; I only weigh charges for long range (900m/1000y) shooting.
My first target rifle (M70, .308W, MacLennan barrel etc) shoots an honest 0.6 MOA (5-shot groups); somehow it seems to be able to shoot out-shoot most so-called 1/4 minute rifles....! Obviously it does not outshoot a real 1/4 minute rifle - such beasts really do exist, and they are wondrous things. But "so-called 1/4 minute rifles" are much more common, and never seem to actually shoot 1/4-minute on a range, at least none that I've ever been on... ;-)
If you sort your brass or your bullets by weight, one interesting thing you can do is to identify and set aside a few of the extreme outliers - say, the very heaviest or lightest bullets or pieces of brass you have. It is interesting to carefully load them up, as best as you can, with an ordinary good accurate load. Some day, after you have completed firing of a group with your "best-matched" good ammo, fire a shot with your "intentionally-most-mismatched" ammo. Oftentimes you'll find that it goes straight into the group. Which is a nice way to learn that perhaps sorting your brass into 0.1 grain "bins" really isn't so important; perhaps 1-grain "bins" is plenty good...!?
Another thing which usually doesn't matter very much at all, especially at short range (300 yards and less) and even mid range (500 & 600 yards), are small variations in powder charge weight. Try loading five rounds with 0.3 grains less powder and five rounds with 0.3 grains more powder than your standard "best known load" (is using a .308W, make it 0.5 grains more and 0.5 grains less). Fire a five shot group with your "best known load", then fire five shots with your "lighter" load right into the same group, then fire your five shots of "heavier". If you own a chrono, it's nice to do all this over your chono. Once you see that all fifteen shots go nicely into a group, with no apparent changes from these powder charge weight changes, you can get a bit more comfortable about throwing your powder charges instead of weighing each one. FWIW I throw the charges on the .308W ammo I use for 300y-600m shooting, and this shoots well enough to be able to win a national championship match; I only weigh charges for long range (900m/1000y) shooting.
shotgunjoe
CGN Regular
- Location
- winnipeg mb
Curt, good thing Savage is replacing parts under warranty.
All kidding aside it is a good group Crout, as for not being able to repeat the next time out maybe the rifle needs a good scrubbing or your bedding screws came loose. I was serious about the seater for the Lee deluxe dies it is a good one. If they would only produce a micrometer adjustment for it, it would be a beauty. The rifle I broke would put five shots just under 1" at 200yds using the Lee deluxe in .223 rem.. As you stated,practice, practice, practice.
All kidding aside it is a good group Crout, as for not being able to repeat the next time out maybe the rifle needs a good scrubbing or your bedding screws came loose. I was serious about the seater for the Lee deluxe dies it is a good one. If they would only produce a micrometer adjustment for it, it would be a beauty. The rifle I broke would put five shots just under 1" at 200yds using the Lee deluxe in .223 rem.. As you stated,practice, practice, practice.
I hear yah, sometimes what i like to do is take my targets and cut them out and stack all the targets so i have the same POA just to see the entire group size as a whole. and everthing does fall into a group. if you can call a 2" 25 or 32-shots a group at 200 yards?
I don't sort my bullets at all except by length just for ease of use when they go in the bullet seater.(but only for my 6.5x55 and the forester seater) the lee seater is too inacurate for that. I have to fine tune each bullet i seat so i get the same measurement on the comparator.
and for my brass for the 223 i just sorted it so i had an averag weight of the good group i shot then i took all the brass +- .3grs so it's about a .7-.8gr spread so i didn't go totaly nuts with my sorting.
by the way, thanks for mending my ego a bit. hopefully next time at the range i'll have more consistant results.because i know my rifle can do it!!
I'm not too fond of the bullet seater as it puts a small crimp/ring just under the tip of the amax, that and if you take two bullets exactly the same length and seat them you get 2 different readings. but it'll have to do for now.
