Source of 2.5 inch 12ga shells?
- Thread starter Aabradsh
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Many damascus guns OF QUALITY MAKE in the UK are nitro proof. Many are sent back to proof house to get nitro proof. In blow up tests performed in the UK in the early 1900's 3 out of the 4 strongest barrels were damascus from reputable makers. There is a difference between damascus and twist barrels which were common on cheap Belgian imports at the turn of the century.
Bad idea. The length ( 2 1/2”, 2 3/4”, 3”, etc ) is taken on empty shells, it isn’t the loaded length. Using 2 3/4” ammo in a 2 1/2” chamber will increase chamber pressure, possibly beyond safe limits, because the longer 2 3/4” hull won’t have enough room to fully open in the shorter 2 1/2” chamber, creating a restriction at the forcing cone where the chamber transitions to the bore. Depending on the specific gun and the particular ammunition this could drive pressures beyond the specified maximum limit. Remember, shotgun barrels are very thin and pressures are very low, a small increase can have drastic results. And even if no immediate negative result is noticed, the overpressure will put strain on an old gun that it was never built for, leading to looseness, cracked stocks, broken parts, all because the owner was too lazy or cheap to use the correct ammo.
the spank
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Well said. Personally I was holding off for a future Darwin post but you may have prevented that from happening. Lol
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Falconflyer
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
Ashcroft nailed it. It always amazes me how many people think it's alright to shoot longer shells than their shotgun is chambered for. I was goose hunting with a guy who was using 3 inch shells in his 870 that was chambered 2 3/4, I tried to educate him about the dangers but he wouldn't listen so I never invited him along hunting again!
Tests performed on new guns or guns that were maybe 20 years old at the time are not overly relevant today when those guns may be approaching 150 years old. Smokeless powder in old Damascus guns is a recipe for disaster IMO.
Nah, I have several hundred rounds of 2 3/4 BP shot shells that I fully intend to shoot through my 1870's Damascus bbl shotgun. I've already shot numerous boxes through the gun without issue. These rounds were built to be low pressure, using black powder and fibre wads. Thats not the same as smokeless loads with a plastic wad.
Falconflyer
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
This was your original statement that 3 of us commented on. "There is no reason 2 3/4" cases can't be used in a 2 1/2" chamber." It's a blanket statement that would indicate you think it's ok to do it with smokeless powder loads.
Well it's a recipe for disaster if you don't know how to assess barrel condition or understand much about max pressure and pressure curves as they pertain to shotshells and barrels. Literally 10s of thousands of Damascus barreled guns are used safely every year with smokeless powders by knowledgeable people across North America and Europe, including the UK. The age of the barrel has nothing to do with it. The ability of steel to withstand pressure doesn't degrade over time. So that leaves barrel condition as well as the original pressure levels the barrels were designed for as the mitigating factors. Is it pitted, inside or out? Has sufficient metal been removed over time, either by honing the bores or striking the barrels in advance of bluing or re-browning in the case of Damascus? If they are proofed, what load (pressure level) were they originally proofed for?
The subject really isn't one where opinions matter much. It's science. Metallurgy.
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I found this article on Proofing for guns in England. This online magazine has lots of articles on gunsmithing related topics for vintage British guns which you may find of interest.
https://www.vintageguns.co.uk/magazine/is-that-gun-in-proof-
I thought this second-last paragraph was worth noting:
"Does anything else matter?
While bore size and wall thickness are the most crucial factors to assess, they are not the only ones. A gun may be considered out of proof if it is severely pitted, if the ribs are detached or it is significantly dented. In extreme cases an action may be cracked and that renders the gun out of proof, even if repaired. If the chambers have been extended (commonly from 2 1/2” to 2 3/4”, it is out of proof unless it has been re-proofed for 2 3/4” chambers. People buying guns from the United States should be aware of this, as a gun with chambers extended is both illegal to sell in the UK and illegal to import into the UK."
https://www.vintageguns.co.uk/magazine/is-that-gun-in-proof-
I thought this second-last paragraph was worth noting:
"Does anything else matter?
While bore size and wall thickness are the most crucial factors to assess, they are not the only ones. A gun may be considered out of proof if it is severely pitted, if the ribs are detached or it is significantly dented. In extreme cases an action may be cracked and that renders the gun out of proof, even if repaired. If the chambers have been extended (commonly from 2 1/2” to 2 3/4”, it is out of proof unless it has been re-proofed for 2 3/4” chambers. People buying guns from the United States should be aware of this, as a gun with chambers extended is both illegal to sell in the UK and illegal to import into the UK."
Here is another article from Vintage Guns which talks about cartridges for 2 1/2" guns. I know the UK shells they describe are not available here but the load specs may be of some help:
https://www.vintageguns.co.uk/magazine/cartridge-loads
Here is an interesting paragraph:
"Be aware that the weight of your gun is an important factor in choice of ammunition. If you have a light gun, pushing super-fast, heavy loads through it (even those which conform to proof marks) will be uncomfortable for you, giving a lot of felt recoil, and hard on your gun, making it liable to shoot-loose faster. In the days of black powder, the standard English 12-bore game load was 1 1/8oz of shot, in a 2 1/2″ case. After the introduction of ‘smokeless’ powders in the late 19th century, the standard load was reduced to 1 1/6 oz. The 1 oz Eley Impax 2 1/2″ paper case was, for most of the first half of the 20th century, considered a ‘gentleman’s load’ for driven pheasant shooting."
https://www.vintageguns.co.uk/magazine/cartridge-loads
Here is an interesting paragraph:
"Be aware that the weight of your gun is an important factor in choice of ammunition. If you have a light gun, pushing super-fast, heavy loads through it (even those which conform to proof marks) will be uncomfortable for you, giving a lot of felt recoil, and hard on your gun, making it liable to shoot-loose faster. In the days of black powder, the standard English 12-bore game load was 1 1/8oz of shot, in a 2 1/2″ case. After the introduction of ‘smokeless’ powders in the late 19th century, the standard load was reduced to 1 1/6 oz. The 1 oz Eley Impax 2 1/2″ paper case was, for most of the first half of the 20th century, considered a ‘gentleman’s load’ for driven pheasant shooting."
Kent Canada in Peterborough bring in some flats of 2 1/2" Gamebore game loads ever year.
Mostly 12 I think but 16, 20, 28 and 410 possibly too.
Worth a call, and especially if you are within driving distance.
When I spoke to them this year I was told that they've also made a new website and will be adding stock to it for direct sale as it comes available.
They said that the Gamebore shipment is happening early in the Fall and that I could watch the site at that time.
Mostly 12 I think but 16, 20, 28 and 410 possibly too.
Worth a call, and especially if you are within driving distance.
When I spoke to them this year I was told that they've also made a new website and will be adding stock to it for direct sale as it comes available.
They said that the Gamebore shipment is happening early in the Fall and that I could watch the site at that time.
I posted this link just a couple days ago in a 16ga thread (yes, another one..).
"Comprehensive Barrel Evaluation, Non-Destructive Testing & Load Recommendations"
https://docs.google.com/document/u/0/d/1ZIo0y746UsSRZIgRuuxwAbZjSBHitO_EanvwLYc-kGA/mobilebasic
It talks about vintage doubles, damascus barrels, short chambers and chamber pressure. A bit long but worth a read.
It is prudent to use shells that match the chamber length. And be wary of lengthened chambers or honed bores.
"Comprehensive Barrel Evaluation, Non-Destructive Testing & Load Recommendations"
https://docs.google.com/document/u/0/d/1ZIo0y746UsSRZIgRuuxwAbZjSBHitO_EanvwLYc-kGA/mobilebasic
It talks about vintage doubles, damascus barrels, short chambers and chamber pressure. A bit long but worth a read.
It is prudent to use shells that match the chamber length. And be wary of lengthened chambers or honed bores.
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Thanks for re-posting this.
