Speed Loaders - nothing new here

[Sharps '74]

I've got a copy of "The History of Colt Revolvers" by Haven and Belden, a lengthy tome on all things Colt from 1836 to 1940.

On page 415 there is a description and pics of "The New Colt Cartridge Pack", a two piece speed loader that consisted of a ring and a plug.

Using a wooden loading block, the ring is placed around the 6 rds and the plug inserted. In use, the speed loader is used as we would with a modern speedloader; pushed forward to free the rds, the plug falling away to the rear.
The US Navy adopted it after it was patented in 1889 for the new Colt Navy revolver.

The Brits had one for the Webley in WWI. The chief advantage of speed loaders from a military standpoint was not only rapidity of reloading, but the ability to do it effectively in the dark without fumbling and the loss of rds from a pouch.

 

[hatman1793]

Most of those using revolvers in the 1st World War were not infantry, but Officers. Designing, & purchasing large quantities of speed loaders for an Officer who would just throw them away with probably a single use is pointless then, & now.
WW1 German Artillery were issued artillery Lugers, a semi-auto heads & tails better than the British W&S .455 revolver.

 

[Sharps '74]

Most of those using revolvers in the 1st World War were not infantry, but Officers. Designing, & purchasing large quantities of speed loaders for an Officer who would just throw them away with probably a single use is pointless then, & now.
WW1 German Artillery were issued artillery Lugers, a semi-auto heads & tails better than the British W&S .455 revolver.

Your point ..... ? The OP was not about the efficacy of a .455 revolver vs a 9mm or 7.63 semi-auto, Winston Churchill's use of a Mauser Broomhandle notwithstanding.

Yes, every Officer was armed with a revolver, either issued or private purchase. Considering the horrendous cost of munitions in any war, do you really think that the loss of a handful of speed loaders during a trench raid would be a concern? Do you really think German Officers carefully pocketed empty magazines in the middle of a firefight, especially at night?

I shoot one of my revolvers once a month at our indoor IPSC practice. I can do it without looking at the gun, so I understand that the ability to reload a revolver at night would be a God send to a British Officer.

 

[TheTooner]

Most of those using revolvers in the 1st World War were not infantry, but Officers. Designing, & purchasing large quantities of speed loaders for an Officer who would just throw them away with probably a single use is pointless then, & now.
WW1 German Artillery were issued artillery Lugers, a semi-auto heads & tails better than the British W&S .455 revolver.

Many of those officers were infantry officers, ergo they were infantry. Perhaps your meaning would have been better expressed by the terms rifleman or private soldier?
Officers were expected to purchase their own sidearms so if they had speed loaders they would also have purchased those themselves. If they did and if they found the devices to be useful, I think it unlikely even the gentlemen of private means among them would have thrown them away. They couldn't exactly tell their valet the next morning to send to the local gunshop for replacements for the tonight's trench raid.

Although a pistol was prescribed as their standard equipage many officers, when serving in the trenches, acquired rifles and carried and used them.

Pistols were issued to other ranks whose duties made a rifle impractical. The Webley revolvers were simple to operate and maintain, rugged and reliable.

 

[Sharps '74]

Like swagger sticks, revolvers were part of the uniform for Officers, whether used much or not.

And when used, particularly in a trench raid (and at night), a handgun was easier to handle than a rifle. It also offered multiple shots without having to manipulate a bolt in a confused and confined space.

When used, retention of speed loaders would be the last concern an Officer would have in the heat of battle. Ever watch an IPSC/IDPA shooter in competition? Once used, it is dropped like a hot potato, as are pistol magazines.

In the case of the Americans, it was the US Navy that first adopted speedloaders for their Shore Parties and Marines when they adopted the 1889 Colt swing-out cylinder .38 revolver. The US Army came up with moon clips in WWI for the Colt and S&W M1917s so they could use .45 ACP ammo.

I doubt that there was any concern about retention of these clips after use.

 

[DanRR]

When used, retention of speed loaders would be the last concern an Officer would have in the heat of battle. Ever watch an IPSC/IDPA shooter in competition? Once used, it is dropped like a hot potato, as are pistol magazines.


Same with cops on the street.

 

[Sharps '74]

When cops were still being issued revolvers, that is. Even so, a lot of PDs carried their ammo in drop pouches.

Did Horsey MP ever issue speed loaders for their S&W Model 10s?

 

[TheTooner]

Like swagger sticks, revolvers were part of the uniform for Officers, whether used much or not.

And when used, particularly in a trench raid (and at night), a handgun was easier to handle than a rifle. It also offered multiple shots without having to manipulate a bolt in a confused and confined space.

When used, retention of speed loaders would be the last concern an Officer would have in the heat of battle. Ever watch an IPSC/IDPA shooter in competition? Once used, it is dropped like a hot potato, as are pistol magazines.

In the case of the Americans, it was the US Navy that first adopted speedloaders for their Shore Parties and Marines when they adopted the 1889 Colt swing-out cylinder .38 revolver. The US Army came up with moon clips in WWI for the Colt and S&W M1917s so they could use .45 ACP ammo.

I doubt that there was any concern about retention of these clips after use.

Unlike swagger sticks, an officer's sidearm was a weapon to be used to protect himself.

I've never watched an IPSC/IDPA shooter in competition. Do they get to go back to where they dropped their magazines and retrieve them after the game? Not something I'd expect to be able to do in combat, so I and my soldiers practiced to not lose, never mind throw away, our equipment, especially weapon ancillaries. But we weren't in WWI. Or IPSC/IPDA.

So you'll have your doubts and if they had speed loaders and thought they worth carrying I doubt that they treated them as disposable items.

 

[Sharps '74]

Are you comparing range training to actual combat? Of course soldiers retain their magazines as they are accountable items! On the two-way range?- gimme a break ..... maybe during a lull when changing to a full mag.

At $50 a pop for some magazines and $20 a pop for speed loaders, youdambetcha sport shooters retrieve them! BUT - not until the gun in use is cleared and the RO/SO pronounces the range "Safe".

You can have your doubts about their retention in combat, but until there are factual accounts of them being retained during a firefight we'll never know.

Besides - this discussion was/is about REVOLVER SPEED LOADERS, particularly during WWI and before. Somebody somewhere at some time thought they were a good idea for reloading a revolver under duress or at night. Whether or not in the middle of a trench raid an Officer would take the time to pocket an empty speed loader I leave to your imagination. Mine would end up in the mud and good riddance!

Same applies to a semi-auto magazine. I'm fighting to stay alive, not retain a magazine I bought and paid for or was issued. Original 1911 mags had a small lanyard ring for whatever purpose I cannot imagine. The first time you drive one of these into the heel of your hand during a reload, you realize what a stupid idea that was!

In the movie "Lawrence of Arabia", Peter O'Toole is seen ejecting empties from his Mk VI Webley during combat. His hand immediately goes to the bandoleer across his chest which is empty. It would make a lot of sense to have had a speed loader instead of fumbling with loose rounds in a highly charged emotional state.

 

[tacfoley]

The Webley-Fosbery revolver, a strange hybrid revolver/self-cocker, used a species of speed loader, one of which was the Prideaux.

 

[Sharps '74]

Yes, that's the one I was referring to. Works on any top break revolver, including the Webley-Greene revolvers. Don't know if it would serve for a Colt or S&W side swing.

If you google 'Prideaux speed loaders', you will get a lot of info, including a video from Mar-Star showing how to use one. And a line drawing showing a Brit Officer using one on another site! He is wearing the three loader pouch on his Sam Browne belt.

Invented in 1893 and said to be three times as fast to reload with as without, likely faster with practice. They were recharged from the side, pressing the rds into 12 steel fingers that held the rds correctly spaced.

They were issued in leather pouches containing three loaders. Starting with a loaded gun, that's 24 rds available instantly. That's better than three 1911 mags loaded with 7 rds each a US Officer would carry, assuming one in the gun. The US policy was also to carry with the chamber empty for 'safety'. Fine in garrison, deadly in the trenches. Smart officers likely carried "cocked & locked'' against regulations.

Originals are scarce and command a ridiculous price - $300 - $500 if you can find one. Functional repros are available.

Ian McCollum on 'Forgotten Weapons' has a good video shooting a Webly-Fosbery "Automatic". As he loaded it with 6 rds from his pocket, he managed to drop one into the dirt, commenting that a Prideaux speed loader would have been a useful accessory. And he wasn't ducking Boche bullets!

 

[TheTooner]

Are you comparing range training to actual combat? Of course soldiers retain their magazines as they are accountable items! On the two-way range?- gimme a break ..... maybe during a lull when changing to a full mag.

At $50 a pop for some magazines and $20 a pop for speed loaders, youdambetcha sport shooters retrieve them! BUT - not until the gun in use is cleared and the RO/SO pronounces the range "Safe".

You can have your doubts about their retention in combat, but until there are factual accounts of them being retained during a firefight we'll never know.

Besides - this discussion was/is about REVOLVER SPEED LOADERS, particularly during WWI and before. Somebody somewhere at some time thought they were a good idea for reloading a revolver under duress or at night. Whether or not in the middle of a trench raid an Officer would take the time to pocket an empty speed loader I leave to your imagination. Mine would end up in the mud and good riddance!

Same applies to a semi-auto magazine. I'm fighting to stay alive, not retain a magazine I bought and paid for or was issued. Original 1911 mags had a small lanyard ring for whatever purpose I cannot imagine. The first time you drive one of these into the heel of your hand during a reload, you realize what a stupid idea that was!

In the movie "Lawrence of Arabia", Peter O'Toole is seen ejecting empties from his Mk VI Webley during combat. His hand immediately goes to the bandoleer across his chest which is empty. It would make a lot of sense to have had a speed loader instead of fumbling with loose rounds in a highly charged emotional state.

Are you comparing IPSC/IPDA competitions and Peter O'Toole in a movie to actual combat? I mentioned previously I've never seen IPSC/IPDA competition (let alone played in one). I have seen the movie Lawrence of Arabia starring Peter O'Toole, but I wasn't in it or WWI. But I have been an infantry officer and when I was, part of my job was to ensure that my troops could use their equipment skillfully and ... not lose it, because we might need it again.

 

[Sharps '74]

Goody for you!

You need to get out more and see how really skillful people handle their guns in competition. You might learn a thing or two.

So you don't think it would be advantageous to use a speed loader in a combat situation? A real one that is, not a movie scenario. Interesting.

You're saying that in the heat of battle, using a speed loader would not be advantageous and if one was used, it would have to be retained lest some officious type would be all over you for dropping it. Brilliant.

Frankly, I don't give a rat's ass what you train your soldiers to do. I remind you - The original post was re: the design and historic use of speed loaders, not what some anal Officer requires his troops to do with their spent/partially depleted mags in training.

When guys like Ian McCollum, a pretty savvy guy when it comes to small arms in general, drops a rd during a reload and comments that the use of a speed loader would have prevented it, he speaks truth.

I'd love to be on a range with you, both of us similarly armed, and time a firing sequence with a reload. To make it even better - both of us armed with a Webley (or ANY revolver), your ammo in a bandoleer/drop pouch and me with speed loaders.

Care to guess the likely outcome ..... ?

PS: I just did a google search and it is a British thing to retain magazines. They issue 8 mags and want eight back again! That forces a soldier to stuff it into his smock or otherwise retain it. The Americans, on the other hand, regard them as disposable items. Once used in a firefight, their purpose having been served, who cares? Stuffing loose rds into empty mags during a firefight not considered good policy.

 

[Sassybee]

Unlike ipsc, there is no clock to beat in combat. Fastest shooter isn't how a gunfight is won or lost. Attempting to apply what a gamer does to what should be done in combat is very naive. No doubt a speedloader is much faster than loose loading. The question is whether or not it makes enough of a difference to matter.

 

[Sassybee]

Double post

 

[Sharps '74]

Unlike ipsc, there is no clock to beat in combat. Fastest shooter isn't how a gunfight is won or lost. Attempting to apply what a gamer does to what should be done in combat is very naive. No doubt a speedloader is much faster than loose loading. The question is whether or not it makes enough of a difference to matter.

Does it make a difference? You're kidding, right?

You're in a gun fight trying to shoot the other guy before he shoots you. Once you fire your 6 rds (under duress you have not been counting your rds fired), you are armed with a club in a gun fight. Does it not strike you as a good idea to get it back into action ASAP?

And you're right - it isn't the fastest shooter who will prevail. Witness Jeff Cooper's rule of applied firepower:

"It isn't the first rd fired that settles a gun fight or the number of rds fired. It is the first rd the finds the intended mark."

A loaded gun increases the likelihood of survival. A speed loader makes that more efficient.

You and our Officer friend have missed a point - it wasn't "Gamers" that invented speed loaders. It was SOLDIERS !!! "Gamers" took a good idea and literally ran with it.

When some bright bulbs invented side swing (Colt) and break top (S&W and Webley), it begged the question - "How do I quickly and efficiently reload this thing before the tomahawk splits my skull or the Fuzzy-Wuzzy impales me with with his spear?"

When the US Army adopted the Schofield revolver, they issued speed loaders. That predated the Brits doing the same thing and the US again after adopting the Colt side opening .38 revolver.

Damn soldiers again, trying to stay alive!

Why is it a good idea? In Cowboy Action Shooting, the shooter's revolvers are loaded with 5 rds. If I have to explain why, you are not well enough informed to be in a discussion like this. Occasionally, the stage will require the loading of a 6th rd on the clock. Fingers instantly become thumbs, rds are dropped and often the gun must be cycled around the clock as it has not been properly indexed.

Custer's 7th Cavalry found out that the Colt SAA was not the best fighting weapon when faced with Sioux armed with Henry and Spencer repeating rifles.

In IPSC/IDPA (and no, I don't equate them to actual combat) you are under stress even though no one is shooting back at you. Speed loaders and magazines are fumbled and dropped by shooters in too much of a hurry.

You and our Officer friend need to do more historic reading and get out more often into the world of competition shooting. Many if not ALL the current methods of police and military small arms techniques were pioneered and perfected by "Gamers" in competition.

 

[4n2t0]

Why does anyone even bother?

 

[Sharps '74]

You're right !!! I quit !!!

 

[Sassybee]

Does it make a difference? You're kidding, right?

You're in a gun fight trying to shoot the other guy before he shoots you. Once you fire your 6 rds (under duress you have not been counting your rds fired), you are armed with a club in a gun fight. Does it not strike you as a good idea to get it back into action ASAP?

And you're right - it isn't the fastest shooter who will prevail. Witness Jeff Cooper's rule of applied firepower:

"It isn't the first rd fired that settles a gun fight or the number of rds fired. It is the first rd the finds the intended mark."

A loaded gun increases the likelihood of survival. A speed loader makes that more efficient.

You and our Officer friend have missed a point - it wasn't "Gamers" that invented speed loaders. It was SOLDIERS !!! "Gamers" took a good idea and literally ran with it.

When some bright bulbs invented side swing (Colt) and break top (S&W and Webley), it begged the question - "How do I quickly and efficiently reload this thing before the tomahawk splits my skull or the Fuzzy-Wuzzy impales me with with his spear?"

When the US Army adopted the Schofield revolver, they issued speed loaders. That predated the Brits doing the same thing and the US again after adopting the Colt side opening .38 revolver.

Damn soldiers again, trying to stay alive!

Why is it a good idea? In Cowboy Action Shooting, the shooter's revolvers are loaded with 5 rds. If I have to explain why, you are not well enough informed to be in a discussion like this. Occasionally, the stage will require the loading of a 6th rd on the clock. Fingers instantly become thumbs, rds are dropped and often the gun must be cycled around the clock as it has not been properly indexed.

Custer's 7th Cavalry found out that the Colt SAA was not the best fighting weapon when faced with Sioux armed with Henry and Spencer repeating rifles.

In IPSC/IDPA (and no, I don't equate them to actual combat) you are under stress even though no one is shooting back at you. Speed loaders and magazines are fumbled and dropped by shooters in too much of a hurry.

You and our Officer friend need to do more historic reading and get out more often into the world of competition shooting. Many if not ALL the current methods of police and military small arms techniques were pioneered and perfected by "Gamers" in competition.

Thank you for the "holier than thou" speach.

You touched on my point. Loading quickly to miss is not a wise use of ammunition. Making hits is what counts. No doubt speedloaders save time. However, your time would be better spent on honing marksmanship skills as well as tactics. A speedy reload is good, but it's far from being high on the list of critical skills.

Your example paints a very narrow scenario. One that ignores the use of cover, concealment, or tactics. Your scenario is the classic "two guys standing in an open field racing to reload first and get their shot(s) off." It's unrealistic and intentionally skewed.

Fast reloads is important and valuable. In that light a revolver is a grossly outdated poor performer. Hence the rise and dominance of semi autos with vastly greater capacity, and ease of loading.

 

[Sharps '74]

I typed up a lengthy, researched and documented response to your last and then deleted it.

You are simply too inexperienced, too uninformed and unknowledgeable to take part in this discussion.

As much as it has been amusing, it has been even more frustrating.

"Never enter into discussion with a fool. It makes it difficult for observers to differentiate."