Speed Loaders - nothing new here

Status
Not open for further replies.
Just my opinion, but I think for most of the "free world" the experience of Latin America is the future. The Governments and Law Enforcement Agencies are not going to do anything serious to stop the gang violence, preferring instead to make "pacts" in the hopes -- which much attendant hand-wringing -- that the gangs will only fight amongst themselves and leave the civil population alone. In the meantime, they will continue to disarm the civil population to the greatest extent possible so Government can at least claim to be doing something. And this all works: until, of course, it doesn't. Once the "gangs" and criminal groups start extorting all the local businesses and requiring a "protection tax" (which always grows in price and delivers less protection with each increase) and kidnapping people on a whim things start to fall apart. Most people, at this point, start to wish they had access to firearms and training -- but, as happened in Latin America, those ships will have mostly sailed.

I should point out that there are generally three types of kidnapping most people are worried about: (a) "They" grab someone you are fond of and don't want to lose and demand a significant amount of your finances and holdings to get them back. 50/50 on whether you do. Mexican gangs -- when they kidnap women -- generally addict them to heroin within the first few days and use them as ### slaves during the long and drawn out process of "ransom payment". You often don't get back what you lost in the first place, even if you pay and they are returned. (b) "Express kidnappings" are the most common. You are on the way to the bank and a van pulls up, the person walking behind you on the street grabs you from behind and throws you into the suddenly open van sidedoor and you are off on a trip to all the local banks to drain your account in the company of masked thugs who let you know what's going to happen to you if you don't walk to each ATM machine they take you to without looking at the man they'll send with you. Once your cards stop rendering money because of daily limits, you'll be driven out of town, beaten to snot and thrown from the vehicle. Just before you're thrown out, you'll be reminded that they "know where you live" so just shut up. Several friends or acquaintances of mine went through the first two options, so I know what happened from first-hand accounts. I am troubled I could not arm and train them beforehand, but life is what it is and sometimes there's not enough warning. (c) "They" grab you or a significant other to sell or force into the ### trade or to harvest body parts. Ransom demands will still be made, "proof of life" will still be faked, but generally, nobody is coming back.

My solution, and the solution of a great many of my associates in Mexico to these problems was simple: "arm yourself". Now, Mexico, like Canada and most other countries are not going to allow you to legally do that. Oh, you can obtain firearms -- limited by caliber and power -- and register them to your household and you can get a permit to take those firearms "to and from" a gunrange. But an actual "carry" permit, you aren't going to get. So, you must carry illegally. And many, many, many people do. People who have been kidnapped but survived, people who have lost loved ones, or people (like me) who can read the frigging tea leaves "arm up".*

In situations like this, in what I prefer to speak of as "The Real World" (as opposed to that fantasy World where good guys and girls who are living outside a lot of the United States and few other places on Earth are actually going to ever be allowed to arm themselves) one is going to be carrying illegally. Neither the "good guys" nor the "bad guys" know you are carrying and in actuality, if either of them discovers that you are things might not end well for you. In that world -- the one I normally inhabit everytime we go "home" -- carrying concealed means carrying concealed. NOBODY can be allowed to see that you are armed. I should mention, also, that the daily temperature is around 80 to 85 F or say 25 to 30 C for 9 months of the year. For 3 months, it's maybe between 70 and 80 F or 20 to 25 C. That's indoors, outdoors, everywhere. So nobody is generally wearing a suit jacket unless they are sadistic. If you are living in a Mexican Colonial City -- like the ones I live in and visit -- you are not wearing shorts either. Proper dress is proper dress: pants and shirt. Can't deal with it? Go to a beach. Different rules, different everything, but not my problem as I only visit the beaches but don't want to live on one.

The environment and the need to be absolutely concealed means your sidearm will be small. Maybe -- if you are lucky and desire an automatic -- you can get one of the Mini-Glocks. Carried inside the waistband with a Hawaiian shirt untucked, it will probably work. Spare mag in the pocket? Inside the waistband mag-pouch? Maybe. Maybe. I know one (1) guy who does this. Most people by far are using 5 shot S&W or 6 shot Colt snubbies carried in pocket holsters. I do not know anybody using speedloaders -- excepting women who purse-carry, because they are too bulky. Everyone uses Speedstrips. Speedstrips are slow, Speedloaders are not. But Speedloaders "print" and the H.K.S. ones can dump in your pocket sometimes. Speedstrips do not. Either way, concealment is more important on the daily basis -- and it's everyday, to-and-from work, to-and-from the movie theater or grocery store or the the accountant's office -- than some mythical "quick reload" you'll perhaps never have time to perform if you get caught carrying a weapon by the wrong people at the wrong time.

Circumstances will pretty much dictate what you can get away with carrying, and for most of the people I know, the circumstances work against them. A small Walther PPK/S is a nice, concealable auto I admit, but it is underpowered and can jam on you. A 5-shot Model 40 or 49 won't, and can be loaded to respectable power levels. If you have done everything right, your opponents will be very close: touching distance. If you can break free of the man grabbing you from behind (and you were walking with your right hand in your pocket anyways, as if playing "pocket pool") you can shoot him in the face, and then his masked friends in the van in the face and just walk away. Or not. Either way, it will probably be over pretty quickly.

If you're not up to that, then perhaps stay in a place where you can call a Policeman if you need help. But in my opinion, those places are going to become few and far-between as time goes on.

Interestingly enough, the State of Guanajuato -- one of the most dangerous in Mexico lately -- has passed a couple of neat "Castle-style" laws. If someone breaks into your house and you shoot them: you cannot be charged. If you are attacked on the street and defend yourself: you cannot be charged. How will these laws deal with the problems of "unregistered" or "no carry permit" weapons? It's too soon to say, but there is some light shining through. A Jeweller in Salamanca shot and killed a young gang-punk in his Jewellry store and was arrested. A crowd of angry businessmen and women formed outside the Mayor's office (a job my brother-in-law and one other relative have both held) and were told: "We will not release your friend until the Military Authorities have properly finished registering his weapon!" Good decision. Obviously, and I have heard this repeatedly, you do not want to flaunt the law by carrying and using any "prohibited caliber" weapons. Anything above .38 Special in revolvers is prohibited. Anything above .380 ACP or .380 Cal is illegal in autos. Stick to those, don't get caught, and you should be fine. More information on how to convert a 9m.m. automatic to .380 Cal can be found in Ganderite's thread "Double Action Snubby" in this same area of the forum. But still, any compact or fullsize 9m.m. auto is too big to carry in the Latin American environment of nice weather, less clothing, and no carry permits.

Otherwise? Well, you're on your own. In my opinion, being a "victim" is not an option. You simply cannot allow it to happen to yourself or anyone you really care about, no matter what the law says. I was an IPSC Section Co-ordinator in Canada in the early 1980's and did the same basic job in Mexico for a decade. I like the Sport, I like what basic skills it imparts, but the reality of "life on the ground" in Latin America and Mexico have gone down a different road than most of what those action-oriented gun-sports tend to stress. (Mainly because, I believe, they need to "stick to what's legal" as their format. And since the current political solutions to the "gang-problems" simply aren't going to work and the solutions that actually do work -- at least for personal protection -- are all the first things to be made illegal, no "martial art" that spends a lot of time hand-wringing over what is or what is not considered kosher by the "authorities" is going to be of much help when looking for answers as to "what works on the street in 2020 for the illegally armed businessman or woman about town".)

So my opinion is: Speedloaders are fast, but nobody is using them because they print too much in light clothing and it will probably be over pretty fast either way. If you die, it's probably better than being taken and so far none of my students or friends who were armed has died or been taken -- although a few of them have been in actual fights at very close range. They did not need to reload. I'm not saying it can't happen but if it does, let's hope that Speedstrip is fast enough.

* I should point out, for the benefit of our uninvited and deservedly despised Liberal hand-wringing audience that I do not believe Canada has come to the point at which one needs to carry a concealed firearm daily just to go to work or drive your kids to school. That is all in your future, and I hopefully will be long back in Mexico fulltime before it does. I am talking about what happens in Latin America, and is happening now! Here in Canada, I follow the rules because there is simply no need not to during my daily business. Running a small business in Guanajuato, on the other hand, is a whole 'nuther business. I am not suggesting that you carry concealed. What I am suggesting is that many people talk about the intricacies of "concealed carry" as if it's something they'll be allowed to do by their Government, and in my experience, that's not a permit that's coming anytime soon. (Although, in the case of Mexico, I am working on it. We'll see if that ever flies. It would just legalize what we're already doing anyway.)
 
I typed up a lengthy, researched and documented response to your last and then deleted it.

You are simply too inexperienced, too uninformed and unknowledgeable to take part in this discussion.

As much as it has been amusing, it has been even more frustrating.

"Never enter into discussion with a fool. It makes it difficult for observers to differentiate."

Again, thanks for the "holier than thou" response. Your lack of information indicates it's you who is grasping at straws not me.
 
Calmex - thanks for the "real world" commentary.

But - like our armchair armourers, you also missed the point .....

My original post was concerning the MILITARY history of speed loaders; their origin, types and their efficacy in battle as opposed to fumbling for loose rds from a drop pouch. It got hijacked after that.

If I felt it necessary to pack a gun, I have a wide selection to choose from. The two leading the list are one of my Remington 'Commanders' in .45 ACP or one of my 2-1/2" S&W M19/M66 .357s. Both are highly concealable on my 130 lb 5'-6" frame. Of the two, the S&Ws would make more sense as they retain their spent cases as opposed to scattering them everywhere.

Our climate is such that except for a couple of months, wearing a sports coat or light jacket would preclude any 'printing' of spare mags or speed loaders. Once parkas become the dress of the day, I could pack one of my 44-40 7-1/2" SAAs and no one would know.

I know a few trappers/guides/outdoorsmen that do pack handguns in the back country. Two are neighbours. They are experienced enough to know that a rifle in a scabbard is not going to do any good if the horse is spooked, tosses you and takes off with the rifle. It is also not as handy once you are gutting out a carcass in Grizzly country. They don't feel they need to have the permission of 'Big Brother' to stay alive.
 
Just my opinion, but I think for most of the "free world" the experience of Latin America is the future. The Governments and Law Enforcement Agencies are not going to do anything serious to stop the gang violence, preferring instead to make "pacts" in the hopes -- which much attendant hand-wringing -- that the gangs will only fight amongst themselves and leave the civil population alone. In the meantime, they will continue to disarm the civil population to the greatest extent possible so Government can at least claim to be doing something. And this all works: until, of course, it doesn't. Once the "gangs" and criminal groups start extorting all the local businesses and requiring a "protection tax" (which always grows in price and delivers less protection with each increase) and kidnapping people on a whim things start to fall apart. Most people, at this point, start to wish they had access to firearms and training -- but, as happened in Latin America, those ships will have mostly sailed.

I should point out that there are generally three types of kidnapping most people are worried about: (a) "They" grab someone you are fond of and don't want to lose and demand a significant amount of your finances and holdings to get them back. 50/50 on whether you do. Mexican gangs -- when they kidnap women -- generally addict them to heroin within the first few days and use them as ### slaves during the long and drawn out process of "ransom payment". You often don't get back what you lost in the first place, even if you pay and they are returned. (b) "Express kidnappings" are the most common. You are on the way to the bank and a van pulls up, the person walking behind you on the street grabs you from behind and throws you into the suddenly open van sidedoor and you are off on a trip to all the local banks to drain your account in the company of masked thugs who let you know what's going to happen to you if you don't walk to each ATM machine they take you to without looking at the man they'll send with you. Once your cards stop rendering money because of daily limits, you'll be driven out of town, beaten to snot and thrown from the vehicle. Just before you're thrown out, you'll be reminded that they "know where you live" so just shut up. Several friends or acquaintances of mine went through the first two options, so I know what happened from first-hand accounts. I am troubled I could not arm and train them beforehand, but life is what it is and sometimes there's not enough warning. (c) "They" grab you or a significant other to sell or force into the ### trade or to harvest body parts. Ransom demands will still be made, "proof of life" will still be faked, but generally, nobody is coming back.

My solution, and the solution of a great many of my associates in Mexico to these problems was simple: "arm yourself". Now, Mexico, like Canada and most other countries are not going to allow you to legally do that. Oh, you can obtain firearms -- limited by caliber and power -- and register them to your household and you can get a permit to take those firearms "to and from" a gunrange. But an actual "carry" permit, you aren't going to get. So, you must carry illegally. And many, many, many people do. People who have been kidnapped but survived, people who have lost loved ones, or people (like me) who can read the frigging tea leaves "arm up".*

In situations like this, in what I prefer to speak of as "The Real World" (as opposed to that fantasy World where good guys and girls who are living outside a lot of the United States and few other places on Earth are actually going to ever be allowed to arm themselves) one is going to be carrying illegally. Neither the "good guys" nor the "bad guys" know you are carrying and in actuality, if either of them discovers that you are things might not end well for you. In that world -- the one I normally inhabit everytime we go "home" -- carrying concealed means carrying concealed. NOBODY can be allowed to see that you are armed. I should mention, also, that the daily temperature is around 80 to 85 F or say 25 to 30 C for 9 months of the year. For 3 months, it's maybe between 70 and 80 F or 20 to 25 C. That's indoors, outdoors, everywhere. So nobody is generally wearing a suit jacket unless they are sadistic. If you are living in a Mexican Colonial City -- like the ones I live in and visit -- you are not wearing shorts either. Proper dress is proper dress: pants and shirt. Can't deal with it? Go to a beach. Different rules, different everything, but not my problem as I only visit the beaches but don't want to live on one.

The environment and the need to be absolutely concealed means your sidearm will be small. Maybe -- if you are lucky and desire an automatic -- you can get one of the Mini-Glocks. Carried inside the waistband with a Hawaiian shirt untucked, it will probably work. Spare mag in the pocket? Inside the waistband mag-pouch? Maybe. Maybe. I know one (1) guy who does this. Most people by far are using 5 shot S&W or 6 shot Colt snubbies carried in pocket holsters. I do not know anybody using speedloaders -- excepting women who purse-carry, because they are too bulky. Everyone uses Speedstrips. Speedstrips are slow, Speedloaders are not. But Speedloaders "print" and the H.K.S. ones can dump in your pocket sometimes. Speedstrips do not. Either way, concealment is more important on the daily basis -- and it's everyday, to-and-from work, to-and-from the movie theater or grocery store or the the accountant's office -- than some mythical "quick reload" you'll perhaps never have time to perform if you get caught carrying a weapon by the wrong people at the wrong time.

Circumstances will pretty much dictate what you can get away with carrying, and for most of the people I know, the circumstances work against them. A small Walther PPK/S is a nice, concealable auto I admit, but it is underpowered and can jam on you. A 5-shot Model 40 or 49 won't, and can be loaded to respectable power levels. If you have done everything right, your opponents will be very close: touching distance. If you can break free of the man grabbing you from behind (and you were walking with your right hand in your pocket anyways, as if playing "pocket pool") you can shoot him in the face, and then his masked friends in the van in the face and just walk away. Or not. Either way, it will probably be over pretty quickly.

If you're not up to that, then perhaps stay in a place where you can call a Policeman if you need help. But in my opinion, those places are going to become few and far-between as time goes on.

Interestingly enough, the State of Guanajuato -- one of the most dangerous in Mexico lately -- has passed a couple of neat "Castle-style" laws. If someone breaks into your house and you shoot them: you cannot be charged. If you are attacked on the street and defend yourself: you cannot be charged. How will these laws deal with the problems of "unregistered" or "no carry permit" weapons? It's too soon to say, but there is some light shining through. A Jeweller in Salamanca shot and killed a young gang-punk in his Jewellry store and was arrested. A crowd of angry businessmen and women formed outside the Mayor's office (a job my brother-in-law and one other relative have both held) and were told: "We will not release your friend until the Military Authorities have properly finished registering his weapon!" Good decision. Obviously, and I have heard this repeatedly, you do not want to flaunt the law by carrying and using any "prohibited caliber" weapons. Anything above .38 Special in revolvers is prohibited. Anything above .380 ACP or .380 Cal is illegal in autos. Stick to those, don't get caught, and you should be fine. More information on how to convert a 9m.m. automatic to .380 Cal can be found in Ganderite's thread "Double Action Snubby" in this same area of the forum. But still, any compact or fullsize 9m.m. auto is too big to carry in the Latin American environment of nice weather, less clothing, and no carry permits.

Otherwise? Well, you're on your own. In my opinion, being a "victim" is not an option. You simply cannot allow it to happen to yourself or anyone you really care about, no matter what the law says. I was an IPSC Section Co-ordinator in Canada in the early 1980's and did the same basic job in Mexico for a decade. I like the Sport, I like what basic skills it imparts, but the reality of "life on the ground" in Latin America and Mexico have gone down a different road than most of what those action-oriented gun-sports tend to stress. (Mainly because, I believe, they need to "stick to what's legal" as their format. And since the current political solutions to the "gang-problems" simply aren't going to work and the solutions that actually do work -- at least for personal protection -- are all the first things to be made illegal, no "martial art" that spends a lot of time hand-wringing over what is or what is not considered kosher by the "authorities" is going to be of much help when looking for answers as to "what works on the street in 2020 for the illegally armed businessman or woman about town".)

So my opinion is: Speedloaders are fast, but nobody is using them because they print too much in light clothing and it will probably be over pretty fast either way. If you die, it's probably better than being taken and so far none of my students or friends who were armed has died or been taken -- although a few of them have been in actual fights at very close range. They did not need to reload. I'm not saying it can't happen but if it does, let's hope that Speedstrip is fast enough.

* I should point out, for the benefit of our uninvited and deservedly despised Liberal hand-wringing audience that I do not believe Canada has come to the point at which one needs to carry a concealed firearm daily just to go to work or drive your kids to school. That is all in your future, and I hopefully will be long back in Mexico fulltime before it does. I am talking about what happens in Latin America, and is happening now! Here in Canada, I follow the rules because there is simply no need not to during my daily business. Running a small business in Guanajuato, on the other hand, is a whole 'nuther business. I am not suggesting that you carry concealed. What I am suggesting is that many people talk about the intricacies of "concealed carry" as if it's something they'll be allowed to do by their Government, and in my experience, that's not a permit that's coming anytime soon. (Although, in the case of Mexico, I am working on it. We'll see if that ever flies. It would just legalize what we're already doing anyway.)

Thanks Calmex, I always enjoy your posts regarding Mexico.

I have not been in Mexico since 2007 and we were down south in Tabasco on a job. It was OK, nice even. Now I hear it's getting dangerous.

I find the 20 oz aluminum K frame, round butt, S&W Model 12s (.38 Special) to be ideal carry revolvers. Lightweight, 6 rounds, fixed sights, great DA/SA triggers. The only issue is they are a little bigger than J frames so you can't ankle carry them.

I still work in Colombia and the Philippines where kidnapping is a concern and something to take as many preventative measures against as possible.

S&W 12-2, upper left.

8GhCfZYl.jpg
 
Geologist, I only saw one Model 12 in Mexico. It had a split in the frame where the barrel threads into it. I have a photo of it somewhere around here. The man who owned it brought it to me and asked me if he could still use it "as is" since it was all he had. I told him that, in my opinion, he could continue to fire it occasionally if he limited himself to the Aguila 158 grain LRN factory round that is sold all over Mexico in the Sporting Goods stores. It is non+P and usually gave me about 740 to 750 fps out of a 4-inch and maybe 790 out of a 6-inch. A bit dismal 680 to 700 out of a 2-inch, but much better than nothing or even a factory .380 acp.

I just got a WhattsApp message from him the other day asking if I was coming down this year. I will have to reply and ask him if he still has it and still carrys it. I have photos of it around here somewhere....Lord knows where.
 
I carried it a couple of time working in BC with an ATC. I carried 12 spare rounds in a flap belt holder and later 2 HKS speedloaders in a plastic case. Never needed it but it was light to carry.
 
Goody for you!

You need to get out more and see how really skillful people handle their guns in competition. You might learn a thing or two.

1. So you don't think it would be advantageous to use a speed loader in a combat situation? A real one that is, not a movie scenario. Interesting.

2. You're saying that in the heat of battle, using a speed loader would not be advantageous and if one was used, it would have to be retained lest some officious type would be all over you for dropping it. Brilliant.

Frankly, I don't give a rat's ass what you train your soldiers to do. I remind you - The original post was re: the design and historic use of speed loaders, not what some anal Officer requires his troops to do with their spent/partially depleted mags in training.

When guys like Ian McCollum, a pretty savvy guy when it comes to small arms in general, drops a rd during a reload and comments that the use of a speed loader would have prevented it, he speaks truth.

3. I'd love to be on a range with you, both of us similarly armed, and time a firing sequence with a reload. To make it even better - both of us armed with a Webley (or ANY revolver), your ammo in a bandoleer/drop pouch and me with speed loaders.

Care to guess the likely outcome ..... ?

4. PS: I just did a google search and it is a British thing to retain magazines. They issue 8 mags and want eight back again! That forces a soldier to stuff it into his smock or otherwise retain it. The Americans, on the other hand, regard them as disposable items. Once used in a firefight, their purpose having been served, who cares? Stuffing loose rds into empty mags during a firefight not considered good policy.


1. Please read more carefully, it will save you the frustration of arguing against things that weren't said, with people who didn't say them.

2. No, I think a speed loader (assuming it works well, I have no experience of the Prideaux device for the Webley, nor any of the speed loaders that may have been available for Colt or Smith&Wesson revolvers commonly purchased by British Empire and Commonwealth officers serving in WWI,) would be an advantage. But I didn't mention that opinion in my earlier post - the post where I also didn't say anything against them. Someone else suggested they weren't much use and would be discarded after use. I responded to his remark with my opinion that if the users of the speed loader thought it was a good thing they would try to retain them to use them again because replacements would be hard to come by. I didn't say anything about "...some officious type would be all over you for dropping it." but since you brought that up, perhaps you are curious. I suspect by the time the fairly static trench lines were established and trench raids were a thing, that wasn't such a big deal.

I also didn't say those fellows back then had a low opinion of the value of speed loaders, but to save you the trouble of arguing about that, I suppose if any of them didn't think the speed loaders were worth retaining, perhaps they did throw them away.

3. I don't think I'd care to be on a range with you. I'm afraid I would bore you, and I wouldn't like to be a such a bore to anyone as I fear you would be to me. (That's me guessing the likely outcome.)

4. Yes, I'm sure it's lovely to have pre-charged magazines (or speed loaders) brought to you as fast as you an empty them. Not quite as lovely but still good would be having some empty magazines to stuff loose rounds into rather than single loading into the chamber of your rifle because you didn't bother bringing your empty magazines from your last fire position. Mind you, "...The original post was re: the design and historic use of speed loaders, ..." - and some reference was made to the context of WWI trench warfare. Reloading with multiple pre-charged magazines was hardly a thing then.
 
Last edited:
PS: I just did a google search and it is a British thing to retain magazines. The Americans, on the other hand, regard them as disposable items. Once used in a firefight, their purpose having been served, who cares? Stuffing loose rds into empty mags during a firefight not considered good policy.

Google is a poor substitute for first hand knowledge...as demonstrated by the fact this is wrong on both counts...American combat troops, like virtually all other nations’ troops, are expected to retain magazines in combat. Also, reloading magazines with loose rounds (or on strippers) from ammo crates is standard practice in prolonged firefights when soldiers have expended their initial loadout.
 
Last edited:
yahda-yahda-yahda .....

To all you armchair armourers and warriors that don't even use speed loaders in competition and negate their historic use in combat - the field is yours!

I am overwhelmed/exhausted by d!psh!t!sm from inexperienced, uninformed people. I'm going to do some practice with my speed loaders and dummy rds to work off the frustration.

Let the flaming begin !!!!
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top Bottom