Speer Deep Curl bullets?

S

skhunter

CGN Ultra frequent flyer
Rating - 100%
304   0   0
Location
Lizard Lake, Sask.
I got some .338 225gr deep curl bullets and inside the box is a warning to use Speer data. So I look it up and it says IMR 4350 67.5grs max.
Hogdon data says 67grs start to 72grs max.
Can anybody tell me why, anybody used these bullets?
 
Last edited:
That's the lawyer load , start in the middle and work it up till you notice sings of pressure . Think i read somwhere that the Federal Fusion line are speer deep curls . should be a great bullet .
 
skhunter said:
I got some .338 225gr deep curl bullets and inside the box is a warning to use Speer data. So I look it up and it says IMR 4350 67.5grs max.
Hornady data says 67grs start to 72grs max.
Can anybody tell me why, anybody used these bullets?
Click to expand...

Does Hornady give the data for Speer bullets? Seems to fly in the fact of promoting their own products. I ask because all bullets are not created equal. Speer will have developed their load data for their bullets. Their jacket material may be harder/softer than Hornady's anmd as such will act differently going down the bore. That is why you don't use data for the Speer Hot Cor if your loading the Nosler Partition. I saw a Sako 308 turned into an automatic depriming tool by making just that mistake (incidentally it also removed the extractor from the bolt face as well and caused smoke to waft out of strange places).

If you want more speed, look for a powder in the slower burning range in the data offered by the bullet or powder manufacturer. RL19 offers 60FPS more speed, if you think such things matter.

Be very skeptical of people that dismiss loads in new manuals as "lawyer loads" or who claim that they only use data from the old manuals because "they weren't so scared of lawyers back then". Powders change over the years and testing equipment has improved. The powder companies want to sell you powder...they can't do that by blowing smoke up your back-passage. Ever notive how many companies have moved away from pressure barrels and now advertise powders and loads shot in real rifles? There's a reason for that. a 26" min chambered pressure barrel will give you very different results than a factory chambered rifle. When we nuts see that we can't get to the speeds in the manual, we freak out and complain all over the internet. These guys know their audience well enough that they have changed their ways to give results that are more realistic and, more importantly, repeatable.

Likewise, anyone telling you to work up until you see "pressure signs" is parroting the likes of P.O. Ackley and leading you off the pavement, so to speak. By the time you start seeing case head expansion or loose primer pockets you are, in the words of my Old Man, "in Indian Country". Talk to guys that have spent any time in a pressure-testing lab (John Barsness immediately comes to mind) and they will confirm that by the time you are seeing traditional pressure signs, you're not just a little out there, you're way over the line waving back at your friends. Simply taking a load that is showing pressure signs and backing it down a grain is flawed and dangerous thinking. If you're taking free advice from people on teh internet that suggest these things remember what they teach you in 1L - "Caveat Emptor pal!"
 
BigUglyMan said:
Does Hornady give the data for Speer bullets? Seems to fly in the fact of promoting their own products. I ask because all bullets are not created equal. Speer will have developed their load data for their bullets. Their jacket material may be harder/softer than Hornady's anmd as such will act differently going down the bore. That is why you don't use data for the Speer Hot Cor if your loading the Nosler Partition. I saw a Sako 308 turned into an automatic depriming tool by making just that mistake (incidentally it also removed the extractor from the bolt face as well and caused smoke to waft out of strange places).

If you want more speed, look for a powder in the slower burning range in the data offered by the bullet or powder manufacturer. RL19 offers 60FPS more speed, if you think such things matter.

Be very skeptical of people that dismiss loads in new manuals as "lawyer loads" or who claim that they only use data from the old manuals because "they weren't so scared of lawyers back then". Powders change over the years and testing equipment has improved. The powder companies want to sell you powder...they can't do that by blowing smoke up your back-passage. Ever notive how many companies have moved away from pressure barrels and now advertise powders and loads shot in real rifles? There's a reason for that. a 26" min chambered pressure barrel will give you very different results than a factory chambered rifle. When we nuts see that we can't get to the speeds in the manual, we freak out and complain all over the internet. These guys know their audience well enough that they have changed their ways to give results that are more realistic and, more importantly, repeatable.

Likewise, anyone telling you to work up until you see "pressure signs" is parroting the likes of P.O. Ackley and leading you off the pavement, so to speak. By the time you start seeing case head expansion or loose primer pockets you are, in the words of my Old Man, "in Indian Country". Talk to guys that have spent any time in a pressure-testing lab (John Barsness immediately comes to mind) and they will confirm that by the time you are seeing traditional pressure signs, you're not just a little out there, you're way over the line waving back at your friends. Simply taking a load that is showing pressure signs and backing it down a grain is flawed and dangerous thinking. If you're taking free advice from people on teh internet that suggest these things remember what they teach you in 1L - "Caveat Emptor pal!"
Click to expand...

I meant Hogdon data. The Hogdon data is for 225gr Hornady SP IMR4350 67grains - 72grains. You are telling me I can only use that data for that bullet?

Can you tell me what is safe in in my gun, 67gr or 72gr or somwhere in between if looking for "pressure signs" is in Indian country?
If I load 67grs with no signs of presssure how do I know it is really safe, likewise if I load 72grs with no signs of pressure how do I know it is safe.
I work up loads so that if for example I used 67.5 grs with no signs of pressure but 68.5grs showed signs of pressure I would know not to exceed that in my rifle.
If I went all the way to 72 grs with no signs of pressure I would not go any more because the data says that is max.
 
Well spoken BUM. :cool:

It's too bad a bunch of people here will not believe what you wrote and keep on skating on thin ice. :rolleyes:

BTW, I agree that John Barsness is one of the best authorities on hand-loading currently active in the industry.
 
When I get two very different recommended powder charges from 2 manuals I ALWAYS reference 2 more manuals. By doing this it usually becomes obvious which manual is high or low.

Yes different bullets used can account for the different charges shown in manuals BUT in more likelihood the gun and barrel used, the primers used, the case used, the chamber size used, the overall length used, the lot of powder used, the pressure testing method used,,,, will add up to a bigger difference than just a change in bullets.
 
I was supposed to evaluate some deep curls in my 7mm Mauser this wekend but going hunting got in the way...that being said, I too was interested in Speer's notice to use only loads developed by them for their new 'Deep Curl' bullets.....what I have found is that they actually created a 'fatter' bullet which, in coincidence with copper metallurgy of the jacket, can induce varying amounts of bullet 'drag' in it's travel from breach to muzzle. here are some findings:
160gr. 7mm Deep Curl = 2.80"
160gr 7mm Mag Tip = 2.79"
160gr 7mm Game King = 2.79"
168gr 7mm Berger VLD = 2.79
154gr 7mm Horn. SST = 2.795
Just my two bits.....
 
In my 338 Win Mag, I load 2 speer bullet, the old 200 grains Hotcore and the 225 SPBT. Both will reach best accuracy and velocity with powder charges well below what it takes with hornady bullets or Sierra bullets. I've tried the 225 grains hornady SP with the same charges as with my speer bullets and I lost almost 200 fps.

My current load with the speer 225 spbt is 68.5 of imr 4350 in WW cases (2830fps) with the 200 grains it is 70.5 of imr 4350 with WW cases (2950fps). These are well below the hodgdon max but they still gives perfect velocity for this caliber/bullet combo.

Today, there's so much different bullets that the old saying of starting low and work up is truer than ever. Also, a chronograph is a big must for working up loads, especially when you have a load that is almost 6 grains under another bullet maker's data. It gives you the confidence that you are OK.
 
skhunter said:
I meant Hogdon data. The Hogdon data is for 225gr Hornady SP IMR4350 67grains - 72grains. You are telling me I can only use that data for that bullet?

Can you tell me what is safe in in my gun, 67gr or 72gr or somwhere in between if looking for "pressure signs" is in Indian country?
Click to expand...

Speer's engineers have told you what is safe with their bullet. Hodgdon might also give you data for the Deep Curl eventually, but you cannot, repeat CANNOT use data for one bullet with a different one without taking risks. To propose a load that is 6% over the manufacturer's max load because it is safe with another manufacturer's bullet of the same weight is the same as saying because you drive an F150 it is safe to drive it as fast as you can drive a SVT Raptor. They aren't the same and can't be treated as such.

If you can't get that through your head, post your reloading equipment in the EE - you have no business loading your own ammunition.
 
Last edited:
BigUglyMan said:
Speer's engineers have told you what is safe with their bullet. Hodgdon might also give you data for the Deep Curl eventually, but you cannot, repeat CANNOT use data for one bullet with a different one without taking risks. To propose a load that is 6% over the manufacturer's max load because it is safe with another manufacturer's bullet of the same weight is the same as saying because you drive an F150 it is safe to drive it as fast as you can drive a SVT Raptor. They aren't the same and canèt be treated as much.

If you can't get that through your head, post your reloading equipment in the EE - you have no business loading your own ammunition.
Click to expand...

Where did I propose loading the deep curl over Speer data.

Before I sell my reloading equipment please answer me this.

If you were loading Hornady 225gr SP bullets where would you start.
Hogdon data for that bullet is 67-72grs IMR4350.
Would you start with 67grs and stay with that because it didn't show pressure signs.

Would you start with 72 grs and hope it was ok.

Would you start at 67grs and work your way up and stop if there were pressure signs before you reached 72grs.

Hogdon says 67-72grs is safe, they also tell you to start with the minimum and work your way up slowly looking for "pressure signs" ie. hard extraction, loose or flattened primers. Never exceed max loads.
 
Yes, and another manual will show something different, as will the one after that. It's a guide ffs, not the word of god from on high. Read all the different material pertinent to the powder type you are using and the bullet weight. Take into consideration variations in bullet design, brass construction, primer type and brand, col, firearm it is to be used in, climatic variation, etc, etc, etc. Then take it for what it is; an approximation that you can use to guide your efforts. Nothing more, nothing less. - dan
 
dan belisle said:
Yes, and another manual will show something different, as will the one after that. It's a guide ffs, not the word of god from on high. Read all the different material pertinent to the powder type you are using and the bullet weight. Take into consideration variations in bullet design, brass construction, primer type and brand, col, firearm it is to be used in, climatic variation, etc, etc, etc. Then take it for what it is; an approximation that you can use to guide your efforts. Nothing more, nothing less. - dan
Click to expand...

That is how I've been using load data for the past 25 years and probably the next 25.
 
skhunter said:
Where did I propose loading the deep curl over Speer data.

Before I sell my reloading equipment please answer me this.

If you were loading Hornady 225gr SP bullets where would you start.
Hogdon data for that bullet is 67-72grs IMR4350.
Would you start with 67grs and stay with that because it didn't show pressure signs.

Would you start with 72 grs and hope it was ok.

Would you start at 67grs and work your way up and stop if there were pressure signs before you reached 72grs.

Hogdon says 67-72grs is safe, they also tell you to start with the minimum and work your way up slowly looking for "pressure signs" ie. hard extraction, loose or flattened primers. Never exceed max loads.
Click to expand...

Maybe I'm confused. The original post referred to the Deep Curl bullet that you have. Then you refer to Hornady data (though you've edited it to read Hodgdon now). Now you're referencing the Hodgdon data for the Hornady bullet.

What bullet do you actually want to load? Hodgdon's website (I don't have the manual in front of me right now) does not give any data for the 225 Deep Curl so therefore you are restricted to Speer's data.

All this talk of "How would you load the Hornady bullet" has no bearing on the original question about the 225 DC. But since you asked, I'll tell you. I would start low at the minimum load and ladder test my way up, increasing the charge a half grain at a time, firing all rounds over a chronograph and monitoring the velocities achieved in comparison to those provided in the manual. If the velocities appear to be higher than they should be (and barring anything like an extra-long barrel) I would stop when I get results on the chrony hitting at or near the max velocity. From there you can play with seating depth and crimp (should you desire crimping) until I had groups that l was satisfied with. Barring any bizarre results indicative of an oversized chamber (rare these days) I would not exceed the published maximum. Yes, there may be some room between the published max and the danger zone, but I certainly don't know how much.

As someone that enjoys reading, typing and playing the guitar, I'll save adventures in handloading for someone who is less inclined towards hobbies requiring eyesight and digital dexterity.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom