Spencer 1865 (pictures added)
- Thread starter srosscoj
- Start date
Check the most recent edition of Flaydermann's Guide to Antique Gun prices. The book also gives a number of details that allow you to confirm that the gun has not been altered.
To repeat a comment made to a previous poster; a picture is worth a thousand words.
cheers mooncoon
To repeat a comment made to a previous poster; a picture is worth a thousand words.
cheers mooncoon
srosscoj,
I would not be surprised if this is what your gun is.
This looks like a nice piece.
Springfield Armory Rifle Musket Conversions of Spencer Carbines.
Note the sling ring and bar,retained from the original carbine, an unusual feature on a rifle musket.
In 1871 the Springfield Armory altered 1,109 Burnside Model 1865 Spencer carbines into two band rifle muskets.
The Stabler magazine cut-off and ESA cartouche is seen on these guns.
The guns were fitted for the Springfield Model 1868 angular type bayonet.
.50 caliber (56-50 Spencer rimfire cartridge)
A cleaning rod was added.
The top of the receiver is marked Model 1865
Spencer Repeating Rifle
Pat'd March 6 1860
Manuf'd At Prov., R.I.
By Burnside Rifle Co.
Serial number range from 1-34,000 are the original Burnside Company serial numbers (despite the fact that Burnside only sold 30,502 to the government)
Serial numbers appear both on left top of the barrel near the receiver, and on top of the receiver to the rear.
The number on the barrel was stamped to match the receiver at Springfield Armory.
Each gun retained the original carbine ring and bar on the left side of the frame.
NOTE;
This is the original marking of the carbine receiver, which has misled many collectors into believing that the Burnside Company produced these Springfield conversions.
This reference is found on page 122 of Roy Marcot's book Spencer Repeating Firearms.The example shown in the book is serial number 16935.
David
ESA cartouche found on the left stock.
(Erskine S. Allin)
A mix of Spencer rimfire cartridges.
ESA cartouche on a Model 1860 Spencer carbine.
I would not be surprised if this is what your gun is.
This looks like a nice piece.
Springfield Armory Rifle Musket Conversions of Spencer Carbines.
Note the sling ring and bar,retained from the original carbine, an unusual feature on a rifle musket.
In 1871 the Springfield Armory altered 1,109 Burnside Model 1865 Spencer carbines into two band rifle muskets.
The Stabler magazine cut-off and ESA cartouche is seen on these guns.
The guns were fitted for the Springfield Model 1868 angular type bayonet.
.50 caliber (56-50 Spencer rimfire cartridge)
A cleaning rod was added.
The top of the receiver is marked Model 1865
Spencer Repeating Rifle
Pat'd March 6 1860
Manuf'd At Prov., R.I.
By Burnside Rifle Co.
Serial number range from 1-34,000 are the original Burnside Company serial numbers (despite the fact that Burnside only sold 30,502 to the government)
Serial numbers appear both on left top of the barrel near the receiver, and on top of the receiver to the rear.
The number on the barrel was stamped to match the receiver at Springfield Armory.
Each gun retained the original carbine ring and bar on the left side of the frame.
NOTE;
This is the original marking of the carbine receiver, which has misled many collectors into believing that the Burnside Company produced these Springfield conversions.
This reference is found on page 122 of Roy Marcot's book Spencer Repeating Firearms.The example shown in the book is serial number 16935.
David
ESA cartouche found on the left stock.
(Erskine S. Allin)
A mix of Spencer rimfire cartridges.
ESA cartouche on a Model 1860 Spencer carbine.
Last edited:
I would check on the Internet to try and find Roy Marcot's book.
This is the principal book on Spencers.
I bought it years ago...probably pretty expensive today.
Published by Northwood Heritage Press, Irvine California.
Revised Edition January 1990.
'If your gun is one of the 1,109 conversions done at the Springfield Armory' in 1871 that should impact positively on the value.
I don't know what it would be worth.
Certainly more in the U.S.
If the gun checks out, I would contact some U.S. dealers and send them the best photos you can.
If you decide to do that I can give you the coordinates of some dealers.
Check to see if there is a hole for a cleaning rod.
Also check;
Serial numbers appear both on left top of the barrel near the receiver, and on top of the receiver to the rear.
The number on the barrel was stamped to match the receiver at Springfield Armory.
(The serial number will be the original serial number from the Burnside carbine that was converted.)
Check the cartouche to confirm that it is ESA.
Good luck.
David
Erskine S. Allin
ESA cartouche.
Allin’s greatest contribution was the development of the “Trapdoor” breech mechanism which could be adapted to the existing muzzle-loading rifles. In competition his design proved to be the most acceptable, and he was requested to convert 5,000 M1861 rifle-muskets to use the new breech. These were known as the M1865s. The next year, after improvements were made in the extractor, 25,000 rifle-muskets were ordered altered. The first rifles built from the start as Trapdoors – not converted from earlier muzzle-loaders – were completed in 1873.
NOTE;
Recognizing Springfield Armory Rifle Musket Conversations.
Aside from the comments above.
-New blued 32 1/2 inch Springfield barrels replaced the original 20-inch carbine barrels.
They were 3-groove .50 caliber and chambered for the Springfield .50 caliber carbine ammunition (56-50 Spencer)
This is the principal book on Spencers.
I bought it years ago...probably pretty expensive today.
Published by Northwood Heritage Press, Irvine California.
Revised Edition January 1990.
'If your gun is one of the 1,109 conversions done at the Springfield Armory' in 1871 that should impact positively on the value.
I don't know what it would be worth.
Certainly more in the U.S.
If the gun checks out, I would contact some U.S. dealers and send them the best photos you can.
If you decide to do that I can give you the coordinates of some dealers.
Check to see if there is a hole for a cleaning rod.
Also check;
Serial numbers appear both on left top of the barrel near the receiver, and on top of the receiver to the rear.
The number on the barrel was stamped to match the receiver at Springfield Armory.
(The serial number will be the original serial number from the Burnside carbine that was converted.)
Check the cartouche to confirm that it is ESA.
Good luck.
David
Erskine S. Allin
ESA cartouche.
Allin’s greatest contribution was the development of the “Trapdoor” breech mechanism which could be adapted to the existing muzzle-loading rifles. In competition his design proved to be the most acceptable, and he was requested to convert 5,000 M1861 rifle-muskets to use the new breech. These were known as the M1865s. The next year, after improvements were made in the extractor, 25,000 rifle-muskets were ordered altered. The first rifles built from the start as Trapdoors – not converted from earlier muzzle-loaders – were completed in 1873.
NOTE;
Recognizing Springfield Armory Rifle Musket Conversations.
Aside from the comments above.
-New blued 32 1/2 inch Springfield barrels replaced the original 20-inch carbine barrels.
They were 3-groove .50 caliber and chambered for the Springfield .50 caliber carbine ammunition (56-50 Spencer)
Last edited:
Drm, I am 99% certain that this one of the conversion rifles. Cleaning rod stow spot is present but the rod is not. I will look closer in the next few day at some mor details and take more photos. I am loving the history with this piece. Thanks again.
You can check with the Springfield Armory as they have some records of serial numbers for Spencers. http://ww3.rediscov.com/springar/Page.htm This used to be a free service but I think they charge now. I used to get the history of all the Carbines that I had and it sure helped in selling them.
I have had a couple of these rifles and found they sell better in Canada. There are lots of Spencers available in the States right now. I see a few Rifles and lots of Carbines for sale at shows in the US right now and over the past couple of years have not been selling very good. Carbines are priced in the US from $1200.00 (good guns) to about $3000.00 (lots of condition). Rifles from $2300.00 (guns in the condition of yours) to $5000 (high Condition with history).
If you can add some history to yours it will help. Remember it is not a Civil War gun as it was produced afterward and then converted. It may have been issued to some important Army Company (Springfield will be able to tell you that)
If it has a good bore someone may want to convert it to center fire and the conversion will not hurt the gun as you just repace the guts and it can be converted back with the original parts. They are fun to shoot either way.
I have had a couple of these rifles and found they sell better in Canada. There are lots of Spencers available in the States right now. I see a few Rifles and lots of Carbines for sale at shows in the US right now and over the past couple of years have not been selling very good. Carbines are priced in the US from $1200.00 (good guns) to about $3000.00 (lots of condition). Rifles from $2300.00 (guns in the condition of yours) to $5000 (high Condition with history).
If you can add some history to yours it will help. Remember it is not a Civil War gun as it was produced afterward and then converted. It may have been issued to some important Army Company (Springfield will be able to tell you that)
If it has a good bore someone may want to convert it to center fire and the conversion will not hurt the gun as you just repace the guts and it can be converted back with the original parts. They are fun to shoot either way.
Here are some links to auctions of these Spencer conversions for whatever that is worth.
http://www.icollector.com/Springfie...y-rifle-circa-1871-32-1-2-50-calibe_i11291730
http://rockislandauction.com/viewitem/aid/51/lid/3306
http://rockislandauction.com/viewitem/aid/51/lid/3311
http://www.icollector.com/Springfie...y-rifle-circa-1871-32-1-2-50-calibe_i11291730
http://rockislandauction.com/viewitem/aid/51/lid/3306
http://rockislandauction.com/viewitem/aid/51/lid/3311
The guns sold below the estimated high prices
1, $2750.00
2, $2875.00
3, $1150.00
Remember these prices include buyers % also.
The last one I sold in Canada was 2 years ago and it sold for over $3K. Remember these are rarer and harder to find in Canada then in the US.
All 3 of these guns had nice case coloring on the frames.
Road King,
Interesting auction results.
#1 - Sn 21956, cleaning rod, blued barrel with good case colours, NO STOCK CARTOUCHE ? ($2,750)
#2-Sn 28232 , cleaning rod, blued barrel, nice case colours, ESA stock cartouche -THE BEST OF THE THREE. ($2,875)
#3-Sn 30625 , cleaning rod, decent case colours, blued barrel, ESA and second stock cartouche, bayonet and scabbard-SLING BAR CUT OFF.
(I suspect that that explained the lower sale price) ($1,150)
With no war time history does the demand stem from the fact that only 1,109
of these conversions were produced by the Springfield Armory in 1871?
I have never seen any reference to these rifle muskets being used during the Indian War period.
(Unlike the conversion of the C.W. Spencer carbines in 1867 which were also ESA inspected.)
David
Photos of # 2 ...the best of the three auction guns.
Case colors on the frame. (Note the Stabler magazine cut-off forward of the trigger.)
ESA cartouche on the stock.
---------------------------------------------------------
In 1867 11,000 Spencer carbines were converted to the 56-50 Spencer rimfire cartridge together with the addition of the Stabler magazine cut-off.
These were Spencer C.W. period carbines and were also inspected by ESA.
The intent was that these carbines together with Sharps carbines would be used by the cavalry on the frontier after the Civil War.
According to Marcot the serial number range of Model 1860 Spencer carbines used during the Civil War was 11,000-62,000.
The Model 1860 carbine was the only Spencer carbine to be used in the Civil War.
This carbine shows both the C.W period and ESA conversion cartouches on the stock following the conversion.
Interesting auction results.
#1 - Sn 21956, cleaning rod, blued barrel with good case colours, NO STOCK CARTOUCHE ? ($2,750)
#2-Sn 28232 , cleaning rod, blued barrel, nice case colours, ESA stock cartouche -THE BEST OF THE THREE. ($2,875)
#3-Sn 30625 , cleaning rod, decent case colours, blued barrel, ESA and second stock cartouche, bayonet and scabbard-SLING BAR CUT OFF.
(I suspect that that explained the lower sale price) ($1,150)
With no war time history does the demand stem from the fact that only 1,109
of these conversions were produced by the Springfield Armory in 1871?
I have never seen any reference to these rifle muskets being used during the Indian War period.
(Unlike the conversion of the C.W. Spencer carbines in 1867 which were also ESA inspected.)
David
Photos of # 2 ...the best of the three auction guns.
Case colors on the frame. (Note the Stabler magazine cut-off forward of the trigger.)
ESA cartouche on the stock.
---------------------------------------------------------
In 1867 11,000 Spencer carbines were converted to the 56-50 Spencer rimfire cartridge together with the addition of the Stabler magazine cut-off.
These were Spencer C.W. period carbines and were also inspected by ESA.
The intent was that these carbines together with Sharps carbines would be used by the cavalry on the frontier after the Civil War.
According to Marcot the serial number range of Model 1860 Spencer carbines used during the Civil War was 11,000-62,000.
The Model 1860 carbine was the only Spencer carbine to be used in the Civil War.
This carbine shows both the C.W period and ESA conversion cartouches on the stock following the conversion.
Last edited:
I beleive this a very close relative of the rifle that I have. Thanks DRM and Roadking I really appreciate the info. Below are links to the springfield armory records that i found.
Title: RIFLE, MILITARY - SPENCER/SPRINGFIELD ALTERATION OF MODEL 1865 CARBINE .50 SN# 17947
Maker/Manufacturer: SPENCER, CHRISTOPHER M.
Date of Manufacture: 1871
Eminent Figure:
Catalog Number: SPAR 4873
Measurements: OL:125.7CM 49 1/2" BL: 82.5CM 32 1/2"
Object Description:
SPENCER/SPRINGFIELD ALTERATION OF MODEL 1865 CARBINE .50 SN# 17947
Manufactured by Springfield Armory, Springfield, Ma. - Sectionalized. Springfield Armory alteration of Spencer carbine. Armory added a new 32 1/2" round .50 caliber barrel with three groove rifling. Edward M. Stabler's cut-off also added. Full forend fastened by two barrel bands and an iron ramrod with ribbed head. Serial number marked at breech of barrel to correspond to original receiver number. Stock bears ESA inspector markings in oval cartouche on left side of butt. Approximately 1,108 arms were altered.
Markings:
Receiver: MODEL/1865. SPENCER REPEATING RIFLE/PAT.D MARCH 6, 1860/MANUFD AT PROV. R.I./BY BURNSIDE RIFLE CO. 17947.
Hammer: R.
Bands: U.
Hammer: R.
Buttplate: M.
Rod retainer: PAT/AUG 16/1870.
This weapon was exhibited at The Sesqui-Centennial International Exposition in Philadelphia in 1926.
See, Flayderman, FLAYDERMAN'S GUDE TO..., 6th ed., pg. 519.
http://ww3.rediscov.com/spring/VFPCGI.exe?IDCFile=/spring/DETAILS.IDC,SPECIFIC=13516,DATABASE=56589365,
http://ww3.rediscov.com/spring/VFPCGI.exe?IDCFile=/spring/DETAILS.IDC,SPECIFIC=13518,DATABASE=62961957,
Title: RIFLE, MILITARY - SPENCER/SPRINGFIELD ALTERATION OF MODEL 1865 CARBINE .50 SN# 17947
Maker/Manufacturer: SPENCER, CHRISTOPHER M.
Date of Manufacture: 1871
Eminent Figure:
Catalog Number: SPAR 4873
Measurements: OL:125.7CM 49 1/2" BL: 82.5CM 32 1/2"
Object Description:
SPENCER/SPRINGFIELD ALTERATION OF MODEL 1865 CARBINE .50 SN# 17947
Manufactured by Springfield Armory, Springfield, Ma. - Sectionalized. Springfield Armory alteration of Spencer carbine. Armory added a new 32 1/2" round .50 caliber barrel with three groove rifling. Edward M. Stabler's cut-off also added. Full forend fastened by two barrel bands and an iron ramrod with ribbed head. Serial number marked at breech of barrel to correspond to original receiver number. Stock bears ESA inspector markings in oval cartouche on left side of butt. Approximately 1,108 arms were altered.
Markings:
Receiver: MODEL/1865. SPENCER REPEATING RIFLE/PAT.D MARCH 6, 1860/MANUFD AT PROV. R.I./BY BURNSIDE RIFLE CO. 17947.
Hammer: R.
Bands: U.
Hammer: R.
Buttplate: M.
Rod retainer: PAT/AUG 16/1870.
This weapon was exhibited at The Sesqui-Centennial International Exposition in Philadelphia in 1926.
See, Flayderman, FLAYDERMAN'S GUDE TO..., 6th ed., pg. 519.
http://ww3.rediscov.com/spring/VFPCGI.exe?IDCFile=/spring/DETAILS.IDC,SPECIFIC=13516,DATABASE=56589365,
http://ww3.rediscov.com/spring/VFPCGI.exe?IDCFile=/spring/DETAILS.IDC,SPECIFIC=13518,DATABASE=62961957,
