Sporterizing; NO return on investment

Owner can do whatever he wants with his possession. I really dont care. Its not like stock Lee Enfields are exactly rare, and I doubt anyone is really bubba'ing them these days anywayss.

Depends on your definition of stock Lee-Enfield. An original as issued piece is extremely rare as most have been FTR'd or mismatched. On a given day in the EE I can pick out more than a few SMLEs or No4s that have been restored, re finished etc that are being sold as "original". Real originals are QUITE rare and are a quickly dying breed.
 
Many a military rifle has been cut and chopped to make a "handy rifle".I just hope that nowadays people realize that doing that does not increase the value but substantially detracts from it.The current view on Com-bloc rifles are a good example.Yes they are cheap and affordable but so was the Lee Enfield. Ammo is cheap but so was .303 at one time.At some point in time the gravy train will run out.The UN has put in place sanctions that soon you will not be able to purchase"military small arms".
 
^^^ Beat me to it.
People DONT bubba guns after they become valuable.
They do it to cheap common guns. Like SKS-45 's right now.
Mark my words, there will be #####ing going in 30 years about all the Russian SKS with ground off bayo pivots and nylon stocks.
 
I'm going to sh!t disturb a bit here...

Personally, I prefer to keep the milsurps as issued, and will even go to lengths to get them back to that condition if they aren't already. The only "modifications" I would do would be non-permanent a quick stock swap, or some kind of scope mounting option that doesn't involve drilling and tapping or other permanent mods.

However...

It's your property, so do what you want. I'll quietly cringe when I see your hacked together rifle at the range, but hey, it's your rifle. You paid for it, you do what you want with it. And as far as no return on investment? Well, depends on how you look at it. If you get a cheap milsurp, put a few $$ in parts, and some elbow grease into modding it, and turn it into a rifle that you can shoot better and more accurately, and enjoy more... Well, what's that worth to you? More than nothing, I'd say.

I'm scoping and tweaking an SKS right now, using a magwedge rail so I can flip it back to original at some later point if I want. Might swap out the stock, or not, depending on what I feel like doing. I'm keeping all the original parts so it can all go back to as issued at any point.

I don't expect to in any way increase the value of the rifle in monetary terms. What I will get out of it is a fantastic all around scoped ranch/bush rifle for less money than it would cost me to get a bone stock Mini-14 or Mini-30 without a scope. And it will be just as accurate (probably more-so, by the time I'm done). To me, that's a pretty good return on investment.
 
^^^ Beat me to it.
People DONT bubba guns after they become valuable.
They do it to cheap common guns. Like SKS-45 's right now.
Mark my words, there will be #####ing going in 30 years about all the Russian SKS with ground off bayo pivots and nylon stocks.

Yup. Just look at what's already happened to the price of SKS-45's south of the border after Clinton's BS import bans stopped the flow of them into the US.
 
You have to remember that many milsurps were sporterized decades ago when full stock Lee Enfields were as common as SKS's are now and only cost $25, guys just wanted a cheap hunting rifle and wanted it lighter to carry. Can't blame them really.
 
I am not in favour of modifying ANY milsurp now but years ago they were dirt cheap and sometimes the only way for folks of limited means to afford a hunting rifle. Even today if someone chooses to "customize" a rifle he had best be prepared to keep it or lose money on the deal. I see classic cars for sale all the time," 25,000 invested, asking 12,500" so personalizing anything is a bad investment.
 
Winchester 94's aren't very historically significant , the only noteworthy use of one was when Western hero Tom Horn used one to defend himself against marauding sheep herders in Wyoming .

Actually Mr. Horn used an 1886 Winchester and he was hanged in 1903 for murdering a 14 year old boy by shooting him from ambush. Western hero? Not so much.
 
If it weren't for the sporterizing, the unaltered ones would still be worth not much more than they were decades ago. Supply and demand. There were millions of Enfields made and surplussed. If all of them remained unaltered today, they would not be worth nearly what they are now. But yes, guys who add non-issue features cannot expect to re-coup their expenditure.

There was a thread on it about 6 months back where a guy not far from me picked up a sporterized numbers matching LB Sniper with scope for the price of any other similar sporter without scope. I ended up buying it for about half of what a complete LB sniper goes for these days and doing the restoration. If it weren't for the sporterizing, I likely would not have afforded it.
 
I've sporterized a few rifles because I prefer to use military surplus rifles for hunting. Typically I'll throw them in a walnut or laminate stock, do what I can to improve the accuracy, sights and smoothness of the action. Sometimes I'll reduce their weight when it's feasible. I tend to only do it to mismatched rifles or rifles missing important parts.

While I don't expect a return on my investment with these hunting sporters it does seem to me that the more "tacticool" you make something the more money you'll make. It's not my cup of tea but I think with the current gun culture the more black rifle any sporter job looks the more money you'll get on your return. I see more SKS rifles in plastic than wood stocks at my range.
 
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OP, it is truly a blessing to be granted 20-20 hindsight.

As mentioned by stencollector, if none of those rifles had been altered, they would either all have gone to the smelters or still just be worth their weight as scrap metal.

Back in the fifties, sixties, seventies and early eighties, there were several cottage businesses that employed hundreds of people in North America alone. Right up to the early eighties you could walk into any hardware store, rural gas station, farm implement store, some grocery stores and most second hand/pawn shops and you would find surplus rifles for sale. Some were as close to junk as it gets and some were still new in grease.

Back in 1970, I bought a part pallet of No4 MkI Lee Enfields. There were British, US and Canadian rifles on the pallet. I don't remember where they came from anymore but they had been stacked with heavy cardboard spacers between the layers of 13 per tier and the rifles on the edge, where the steel banding was passed over had extra heavy pads under the bands. There were ten tiers of rifles left of a pallet of 15 tiers. I bought these rifles from Ed Karrer in the US. He loaded them into the back of my pick up with an old farm tractor that had forks on the hydraulic boom. I paid him the princely sum of $200 for all of them. The 303 cal No4s were not popular in the US at that time. All were in VG or better condition.

In Canada, Sears, Marshall Wells, Eatons, Army & Navy, SIR etc offered them for $10 ea issued in barrels or $15 ea new in grease. Allan Lever would sell them to me cheaper than that if I bought them by the dozen and cheaper yet by the gross pack of one hundred. Still, around $7 per rifle.

Very few people wanted a full dress battle rifle in those days. There was a stigma attached to them as they were considered to be "battle rifles."

I brought the rifles back across the border without a batted eyelash from the Customs people. I paid my ten dollar customs fee and went home. All of these rifles had been floated in grease. I had an old iron bath tub for just this purpose. Filled it half full of water and set a fire burning underneath it. Lowered a basket with 20 rifles into the boiling water and let them soak for 15 minutes. Pretty soon 99% if the cosmoline floated to the top and It was easily skimmed off and put into a 5 gallon pail for later use.

This process was repeated until all of the rifles were cleaned and stored in the barn. They needed to be covered with a tarp or they would quickly rust. Every night after work, I would strip a dozen rifles of their front end furniture. The parts were all saved and later, many years later, traded off as the full dress rifles started to become popular again. The fore ends were marked with serial numbers using grease pencils so they could go back onto the rifles they came from. Then, they were cut off with a good hand saw to sporting length. A couple of passes over a belt sander, then a few smears with the cosmoline left over and you had a pretty decent sporting rifle. At least all of mine still had the King Screw spacers left in them. Way to many nimrods used to throw them away.

Believe it or not, this actually ADDED value to these fine rifles and enabled a lot of people that otherwise couldn't afford to buy a commercial rifle, to have a powerful rifle to hunt with. I charged $20 per rifle. That was cheaper than the commercially sportered rifles from the commercial vendors of the time for similar rifles. In a very short time, the rifles would sell and I would look for another lot. P14s, P17s, Krags, No1s, No4s, Mausers of all types etc. I stayed away from the Carcanos, Arisakas, Beaumonts, French offerings and Mosins. They were just to difficult to get ammo for and many considered them to be fugly.

If it weren't for those cheap plentiful milsurps, we very likely would not see the enthusiasts of shooting/hunting we see today. Look at the SKS/CZ858/Mosins. They have enabled a lot of new shooters that couldn't otherwise afford to get into the sport to do so.

Thank your lucky stars for those sporters. Many of them make fine hunting rifles at reasonable entry level prices even today. Bubba did us a big favor in his zeal to turn what was considered to be sows ears into silk purses. Some of them were turned into works of art.
 
Winchester 94's aren't very historically significant , the only noteworthy use of one was when Western hero Tom Horn used one to defend himself against marauding sheep herders in Wyoming .

If you call being the first commercial repeating rifle chambered in a smokeless round insignificant then sure I guess you are right!!
 
MODERN PLASTIC GUN SHOOTERS aren't the greatest shooters and lack a lot of the SKILLS AND TECHNIQUES desired FOR a precision SHOOTER. That leaves them STUCK hunting or HANGING UP PLASTIC mantle pieces. They're still used, old and nothing special.

Tdc

I just had to fix that for you!! :) :) :)

Honestly, Milsurps can be very accurate but the problem is most people have never learnt how to properly use iron sights. Instead of practicing technique most guys spend most of their time playing dress up with plastic this and laser beam that.

As for guys chopping up pieces of history to make hunting rifles, I don't like it but there ain't much I can personally do about it other then buy up as many complete Milsurps as I can.
 
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OP, it is truly a blessing to be granted 20-20 hindsight.

As mentioned by stencollector, if none of those rifles had been altered, they would either all have gone to the smelters or still just be worth their weight as scrap metal.

Back in the fifties, sixties, seventies and early eighties, there were several cottage businesses that employed hundreds of people in North America alone. Right up to the early eighties you could walk into any hardware store, rural gas station, farm implement store, some grocery stores and most second hand/pawn shops and you would find surplus rifles for sale. Some were as close to junk as it gets and some were still new in grease.

Back in 1970, I bought a part pallet of No4 MkI Lee Enfields. There were British, US and Canadian rifles on the pallet. I don't remember where they came from anymore but they had been stacked with heavy cardboard spacers between the layers of 13 per tier and the rifles on the edge, where the steel banding was passed over had extra heavy pads under the bands. There were ten tiers of rifles left of a pallet of 15 tiers. I bought these rifles from Ed Karrer in the US. He loaded them into the back of my pick up with an old farm tractor that had forks on the hydraulic boom. I paid him the princely sum of $200 for all of them. The 303 cal No4s were not popular in the US at that time. All were in VG or better condition.

In Canada, Sears, Marshall Wells, Eatons, Army & Navy, SIR etc offered them for $10 ea issued in barrels or $15 ea new in grease. Allan Lever would sell them to me cheaper than that if I bought them by the dozen and cheaper yet by the gross pack of one hundred. Still, around $7 per rifle.

Very few people wanted a full dress battle rifle in those days. There was a stigma attached to them as they were considered to be "battle rifles."

I brought the rifles back across the border without a batted eyelash from the Customs people. I paid my ten dollar customs fee and went home. All of these rifles had been floated in grease. I had an old iron bath tub for just this purpose. Filled it half full of water and set a fire burning underneath it. Lowered a basket with 20 rifles into the boiling water and let them soak for 15 minutes. Pretty soon 99% if the cosmoline floated to the top and It was easily skimmed off and put into a 5 gallon pail for later use.

This process was repeated until all of the rifles were cleaned and stored in the barn. They needed to be covered with a tarp or they would quickly rust. Every night after work, I would strip a dozen rifles of their front end furniture. The parts were all saved and later, many years later, traded off as the full dress rifles started to become popular again. The fore ends were marked with serial numbers using grease pencils so they could go back onto the rifles they came from. Then, they were cut off with a good hand saw to sporting length. A couple of passes over a belt sander, then a few smears with the cosmoline left over and you had a pretty decent sporting rifle. At least all of mine still had the King Screw spacers left in them. Way to many nimrods used to throw them away.

Believe it or not, this actually ADDED value to these fine rifles and enabled a lot of people that otherwise couldn't afford to buy a commercial rifle, to have a powerful rifle to hunt with. I charged $20 per rifle. That was cheaper than the commercially sportered rifles from the commercial vendors of the time for similar rifles. In a very short time, the rifles would sell and I would look for another lot. P14s, P17s, Krags, No1s, No4s, Mausers of all types etc. I stayed away from the Carcanos, Arisakas, Beaumonts, French offerings and Mosins. They were just to difficult to get ammo for and many considered them to be fugly.

If it weren't for those cheap plentiful milsurps, we very likely would not see the enthusiasts of shooting/hunting we see today. Look at the SKS/CZ858/Mosins. They have enabled a lot of new shooters that couldn't otherwise afford to get into the sport to do so.

Thank your lucky stars for those sporters. Many of them make fine hunting rifles at reasonable entry level prices even today. Bubba did us a big favor in his zeal to turn what was considered to be sows ears into silk purses. Some of them were turned into works of art.

Couldn't have put it better if I tried . Most younger shooters don't get the historic perspective , no insult intended . These cut down mil-surps were the first rifles most of my generation owned . There was no evil intent , just financial reality . I don't like it when I see an old war-horse chopped up these days , but it isn't fair to slag people who sporterized these rifles back in the day , it was a different time with different priorities .
 
OP, it is truly a blessing to be granted 20-20 hindsight.

As mentioned by stencollector, if none of those rifles had been altered, they would either all have gone to the smelters or still just be worth their weight as scrap metal.

Back in the fifties, sixties, seventies and early eighties, there were several cottage businesses that employed hundreds of people in North America alone. Right up to the early eighties you could walk into any hardware store, rural gas station, farm implement store, some grocery stores and most second hand/pawn shops and you would find surplus rifles for sale. Some were as close to junk as it gets and some were still new in grease.

Back in 1970, I bought a part pallet of No4 MkI Lee Enfields. There were British, US and Canadian rifles on the pallet. I don't remember where they came from anymore but they had been stacked with heavy cardboard spacers between the layers of 13 per tier and the rifles on the edge, where the steel banding was passed over had extra heavy pads under the bands. There were ten tiers of rifles left of a pallet of 15 tiers. I bought these rifles from Ed Karrer in the US. He loaded them into the back of my pick up with an old farm tractor that had forks on the hydraulic boom. I paid him the princely sum of $200 for all of them. The 303 cal No4s were not popular in the US at that time. All were in VG or better condition.

In Canada, Sears, Marshall Wells, Eatons, Army & Navy, SIR etc offered them for $10 ea issued in barrels or $15 ea new in grease. Allan Lever would sell them to me cheaper than that if I bought them by the dozen and cheaper yet by the gross pack of one hundred. Still, around $7 per rifle.

Very few people wanted a full dress battle rifle in those days. There was a stigma attached to them as they were considered to be "battle rifles."

I brought the rifles back across the border without a batted eyelash from the Customs people. I paid my ten dollar customs fee and went home. All of these rifles had been floated in grease. I had an old iron bath tub for just this purpose. Filled it half full of water and set a fire burning underneath it. Lowered a basket with 20 rifles into the boiling water and let them soak for 15 minutes. Pretty soon 99% if the cosmoline floated to the top and It was easily skimmed off and put into a 5 gallon pail for later use.

This process was repeated until all of the rifles were cleaned and stored in the barn. They needed to be covered with a tarp or they would quickly rust. Every night after work, I would strip a dozen rifles of their front end furniture. The parts were all saved and later, many years later, traded off as the full dress rifles started to become popular again. The fore ends were marked with serial numbers using grease pencils so they could go back onto the rifles they came from. Then, they were cut off with a good hand saw to sporting length. A couple of passes over a belt sander, then a few smears with the cosmoline left over and you had a pretty decent sporting rifle. At least all of mine still had the King Screw spacers left in them. Way to many nimrods used to throw them away.

Believe it or not, this actually ADDED value to these fine rifles and enabled a lot of people that otherwise couldn't afford to buy a commercial rifle, to have a powerful rifle to hunt with. I charged $20 per rifle. That was cheaper than the commercially sportered rifles from the commercial vendors of the time for similar rifles. In a very short time, the rifles would sell and I would look for another lot. P14s, P17s, Krags, No1s, No4s, Mausers of all types etc. I stayed away from the Carcanos, Arisakas, Beaumonts, French offerings and Mosins. They were just to difficult to get ammo for and many considered them to be fugly.

If it weren't for those cheap plentiful milsurps, we very likely would not see the enthusiasts of shooting/hunting we see today. Look at the SKS/CZ858/Mosins. They have enabled a lot of new shooters that couldn't otherwise afford to get into the sport to do so.

Thank your lucky stars for those sporters. Many of them make fine hunting rifles at reasonable entry level prices even today. Bubba did us a big favor in his zeal to turn what was considered to be sows ears into silk purses. Some of them were turned into works of art.


The more things change..... :yingyang:
 
Couldn't have put it better if I tried . Most younger shooters don't get the historic perspective , no insult intended . These cut down mil-surps were the first rifles most of my generation owned . There was no evil intent , just financial reality . I don't like it when I see an old war-horse chopped up these days , but it isn't fair to slag people who sporterized these rifles back in the day , it was a different time with different priorities .

I agree 100%, and you are echoing my thoughts.


Last winter I went shooting with my wife's Grandfather who is 75 years young. When I pulled out my Lee enfield sporter he looked at and said "wow, do those things bring back memories!! They used to sell those in a barrel at Simpson Sears for $10 or so. In those days most of us couldn't afford a REAL hunting rifle so we would buy them and take them to the smith and get them to chop back the wood!!"

Being in my 30's I would have never known about the barrels full of lee enfields if he hadn't mentioned it. Sportering a rifle made sense back them but now a days I makes no sense financially, especially when cabellas has many nice accurate hunting rifles in the $300-$400 range.
 
I personally hate seeing a chopped up Milsurp, I just cringe. I understand it was the reality of the day and I can accept that however. I have a simple philosophy in life I will tell you how I feel about something and what I think you should do but I respect your right to make the decision yourself. If you want to 'tacticool' that SKS with a modern repro plastic stock and put a 5/30rd magazine on it which actually decreases the reliability of the rifle go ahead. I am not going to recommend it but it is still your decision.

As a younger shooter who is into Milsurps (only two guns in the safe that were never used by a military) I understand I am the minority. By the same regard the collectors are always the minority in any generation. For those that argue our uncut rifles are more valuable because the others got cut down I don't look at that as a good thing. All that means to me is I have one rifle instead of having five rifles due to cost.

For those dissing collectors, some stuff I want is considered rare, others are not so who cares. Also just because something is rare doesn't always make it valuable, the same as something's that are not rare are valuable (look at the price of M1 Garands recently). Remember all a collector is, is someone who has found something that they enjoy and wish to have more of be it types of money, firearms or other items (half the fun is trying to acquire the item). At the end of the day its all about what you are happy with.
 
don't know why anyone would bother sportorizing an original. If you are looking for a project gun there are plenty of sporterized milsurps already available. I own a church hill 303 and a parker hale 303 wouldn't dream of doing anything to a original.
 
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