Working in a gun shop I really have to disagree. I get way more guys in their 20s asking if I have any milsurp firearms than I get old guys. And a lot of them are better educated about them. Most old guys are happy to tell me the (incorrect) facts they read in Guns and Ammo 30 years ago or identify a Mosin as a Carcano and a P14 as a Lee-Enfield.
Sporterizing; NO return on investment
- Thread starter Lebel
- Start date
Working in a gun shop I really have to disagree. I get way more guys in their 20s asking if I have any milsurp firearms than I get old guys. And a lot of them are better educated about them. Most old guys are happy to tell me the (incorrect) facts they read in Guns and Ammo 30 years ago or identify a Mosin as a Carcano and a P14 as a Lee-Enfield.
On a wholly different tack, sometimes purchasing a sporterized rifle is the only way a cash-strapped fan can initially break-into the wonderful world of (certain) milsurps.
Starting out, my first centerfire rifle was a beautifully sportered SMLE, purchased for $150 (that was before my wallet developed a back hole when it came to firearms, you see).
Just a bit later on, I was able to buy a Springfield 1903 specifically because it had been sportered, and was selling for something less than astronomical pricing.
As for Garands? Sad to say I good & truly missed the boat on sub-$1,000 Garands....a big personal regret. I think that was what motivated me to buy 5+ SVT-40's....
Starting out, my first centerfire rifle was a beautifully sportered SMLE, purchased for $150 (that was before my wallet developed a back hole when it came to firearms, you see).
Just a bit later on, I was able to buy a Springfield 1903 specifically because it had been sportered, and was selling for something less than astronomical pricing.
As for Garands? Sad to say I good & truly missed the boat on sub-$1,000 Garands....a big personal regret. I think that was what motivated me to buy 5+ SVT-40's....
That doesn't surprise me... There are some real gems out there that guys put a ton of hours into tweaking and bedding and getting just right...
But those will never command the same price as a poor shooting all original. At some point, it's less about the gun as gun, and more about the gun as history.
You aren't thinking realistically. Back in the day when most rifles were sported it was big business. The shooting magazines used to be full of surplus firearms at outrageous prices. I can remember a lovely 20mm Solothurn semi auto anti tank gun, complete with a ten spare mags and a heavy scope, mounded in a bracket that fit on the side of the gun. This thing was a work of art that was built in Switzerland. It was polished and blued like the best commercial firearms.
It was all I could do to pick it up. Must have weighed close to one hundred pounds. It was a crew served gun of course. When I picked it up from Golden State Arms it came with all the accessories other than a tripod, which they wanted another $20 for. I declined the tripod in lieu of ammo.
This thing was as outrageous as it was accurate. At 500 yards it would completely penetrate a 4ftx4ftx1in sheet of AR plate like it wasn't there. Under the right circumstances it could be a devastating firearm. They never batted an eyelash when it came through customs. One guy commented I would have to buy a Bren Gun Carrier to get around with it. I sold that gun a few months later, haven't seen another one since.
The story is off topic. I only told it because that was 45 years ago and I am trying to get across what was on the market and available back then. The No4 MkI T rifles we so prize now were offered in their crates with all matching components for $80. Garands, new in grease or FTRed were $60. A good wage back then was $40 to $80 for most people, some made more but that was the average back then. Lots of Stens, Thompsons, Sterlings, Mas 49s, Madsens, MP 38s and 40s to name a few submachine guns. Then every other rifle and machine gun used during WWI, WWII, Korea and Viet Nam as well as every little bush war all over the world. The warehouses were piled with them to the rafters and governments were broke. In early 1950 you could buy a fully functional Halifax, Lancaster, B17, B25 for less than the value of the fuel in its tanks. P40s, Hurricanes, Spits, P51s etc were a bit pricier but not much. This is just a few. Everything was available. Nations like Israel were purchasing as many ex Axis aircraft as they could get their hands on. Often they were told to come and take them away.
Everything was plentiful and cheap. History was for museums. People had very little spare cash on hand and practicality was the word of the day. Lots of vets were familiar with these rifles and many wanted absolutely nothing to do with them. Some were actually shaken by the sight of them. Much different from today's rose colored world we live in now in Canada. Many more people back then were also do it yourselfers and some were quite skilled at what they did. You mentioned Parker Hale and BSA. They weren't the only ones by a long shot. Just some of the better known companies that did very good work.
For all of the milsurps that were sportered, ten more went to the smelters. Most of them still new or FTRed in the grease. By 1949 when it was evident Canada, England, Greece, Australia, Turkey, USA etc were goint to get into the thick of it in Korea, they had to start up the old Long Branch plant to produce new No4 MkI* rifles as well as Brens and Stens. They had sold, lend leased, given so much of their equipment away they didn't have enough left to go to war with. Not only that but Greece and Turkey had put in orders for more.
Of course the Garands, SVTs and other notable semi autos of WWII fame changed the demand for bolt action rifles. Everywhere but South America it seems. But they soon got the bug as well. That meant millions upon millions more surplus firearms were sold out of service or destroyed. The Soviets and French would only trickle their stuff out. Now, with the new UN agreements, the remaining stockpiles of ammo and firearms will soon dry up.
With the undeclared war between Russia and Ukraine I wonder how long the cheap 7.62x39 and 54 will last???? Many of those firearms were coming from the old salt mines that were converted to storage vaults for all the old satellite nations unused firearms and ammo. The few that are sold for surplus here are drops in the bucket. The only remaining supplier will be China. I really miss that South African non corrosive 7.62x39. Consistent and accurate in a bolt action.
I don't hear many people crying about bubbaing and SKS or Mosin Nagant. Why?? Because they are cheap and plentiful and only a few that are really familiar with them appreciate their value. Most just use and abuse them.
- Location
- Behind a large rock
Wow, you work in a gun shop. No ways, you must know what you're talking about.
Seriously, did you even read the post were talking about. You did do a good job of proving the point.
Wow, you work in a gun shop. No ways, you must know what you're talking about.
Seriously, did you even read the post were talking about. You did do a good job of proving the point.
Now, now....
....Nyles is good people, and a genuine lover of milsurp firearms. I've picked-up some amazing rifles from him in the past, including a great ZAR Mauser.We should only be so lucky as to have more people like him introducing younger shooters to the love of milsurps.
I believe you've mistaken my meaning . My reference to historical perspective was the fact that most shooters in their 20's , again no insult , don't realize that in the 50's and 60's .most of us couldn't afford a new , or used for that matter , commercial sporter . A large majority of hunters I knew carried cut down milsurps of one form or another . The local gun dealers , Army and Navy , The Hudson Bay Company etc. knew a market when they saw it and sold cut -down rifles for 10 to 20 bucks a piece . An old friend of mine , recently departed worked for the Bay . He often spent days stripping No 1 and No 4 Enfields , cutting off the fore-ends and selling them at the Edmonton Hudson Bay store downtown . Some of you here will remember Tim Falconer RIP . The historical perspective was , that was what was available to us young broke ass kids at the time , not the amount of interest shown in mil-surps in the present day
You're right about the amount of interest and knowledge that the younger shooters are showing . It gives me hope for the future of shooting in this country , I worked in a few gunshops too over the years ( just ask Rembo lol ) and I'm glad to see the old girls finally getting the respect they deserve . I hope this clears up any misconception about my previous post
- Location
- Behind a large rock
Well said.
What we have are a bunch of people that have varied opinions on things. The "It's my rifle and I can do anything I want to it" folks are the ones that the OP is referring to. While you can buy anything you want and do anything you want to it, sometimes you just have to take a minute and think about it. As Bearhunter so graphically described his process of taking 130 rifles and systematically boiling them and then lopping off the fore stocks might have made sense in the 60's it sure does not today. At $20.00 per rifle that netted him $2600.00.At todays prices that would be $65,000 if he would have left them uncut. You cannot undo the past, but you can learn from it. I restore rifles as a hobby that have been at the hands of the self taught "gunsmith". I will never get the money that I put into the restorations back, but as a hobby I find it satisfying to restore these old warhorses back.
Very true, I was talking with one of the older guys at Reliable when picking up my enfield after getting it checked out and serviced, he said back in the day they sporterized so many LE's they had barrels of full wood sets they took off. So much in fact that they used to burn it or throw it out, now try and find nice complete no.1 mk.3 furniture sets he said.
...for my part sporterizing is a BOON! goes back to hunting with my dad and watching a friend of his loose his belgian browning go overboard into very deep water here...still there i suspect...i thank the bubbas for lowering the price of the guns i carry in the bush each year...work up a load and don't care what happens to them...every gun i have/use is a throw-away gun, although some i would feel worse about than others...
...god bless the bubbas!
(i am no collector and not much of a gentleman, either)
...god bless the bubbas!
(i am no collector and not much of a gentleman, either)
I think you're mistaking mine, actually. I understand the economics of sporterizing back in the day, in fact I can sympathise. After 8 years in the Army, including Afghanistan, I have zero interest in own an AR - not so much bad memories as just being bored with them. You'll never find me talking about sporterising because I don't really think anyone is doing it anymore (although I did have the unpleasant experience of selling a guy a weaver base for his unmessed with inherited Stevens 425) beyond the Tapco SKS crowd. But I'm constantly reading posts about how "young people don't appreciate historic firearms" when my usual experience has been the opposite.
An while I'm very familiar with the amount of BS that frequently comes from my end of the counter, believe me when I say the things I hear every day would shock you. And although I'm in my late 20s, I'd be pretty confident that my classic gun collection / knowledge would compare pretty favorably to most people twice my age.
Glad you're still happy with the ZAR Mauser Cyclone! Didn't need two of them but it was still a tough sell!
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OK , now we're good , you're right , most of the guys I talk to and trade mil-surps with are under 35 . And some of them are extremely knowledgeable about military firearms , more so , in fact , than a lot of older shooters . I've been asked many times over the years by younger guys , why would they cut so many rifles up ? To be honest , for the same reason there aren't many Spitfires , Hurricanes or Lancasters left . At the time , they were considered surplus scrap and people with an opportunity to make a fast buck did so . I'm glad to see guys restoring any salvageable rifle back to it's original condition , I've been doing it myself for years . We should trade horror stories one day , I had one guy bring in five , yes five , G-43's that he had improved by hacking the barrels down to " handy " length for hunting in the bush and wanted me to re-crown the barrels for him , I didn't . The best part is . one of them had an issue scope attached, , that was in the 70's , but even then I considered it a blasphemy ........ the horror . Please don't take offense at what I've written , you guys are the future of shooting in this country and I feel better knowing that there are people such as yourself that care about and preserve firearms that are part of our , and future generations , history .
fat tony
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
I guess it's time to post some pictures of the Globco Mohawk to make a point! 
Rather than hotlink to a picture, which might get me banned from CGN, I will put a link to a thread where the various Frankenstein monsters of Globco are mentioned.
http://www.thehighroad.org/archive/index.php/t-442120.html
I took the time to restore a nice SMLE. I could not find any coachwood for her so she wears walnut.
You know what would really be a christmas present for SMLE owners? If someone marketed fibreglass stocksets. I think that would be a huge seller with all the bubba rifles around with no stocksets available.
Rather than hotlink to a picture, which might get me banned from CGN, I will put a link to a thread where the various Frankenstein monsters of Globco are mentioned.
http://www.thehighroad.org/archive/index.php/t-442120.html
I took the time to restore a nice SMLE. I could not find any coachwood for her so she wears walnut.
You know what would really be a christmas present for SMLE owners? If someone marketed fibreglass stocksets. I think that would be a huge seller with all the bubba rifles around with no stocksets available.
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This thread started out in General Discussion and got shunted over here by the mods.
- Location
- east coast of vancouver Island
All I have now is a sporterized 1918 Lee Enfield. I am enjoying shooting it, and will use it this year for hunting. My eyes no longer allow me to focus using iron sights, consequently a scope is going on. Years ago I used to shoot competitively (friendly) with issued, certainly not as issued, Enfields, against Americans with their match rifles and match ammo. Always surprised me how well the Enfield did. For me, being able to hunt with a rifle that helped win more then just a few conflicts, has no little emotional tug. I remember my father, coming home from the ranges and unloading a deer from the trunk of the Chrysler; he had taken it down with his issued .303. (FMJ I suspect, although at that time I wouldn't have even known what that meant). I think we lived on venison in those lean years. He always said that a rifle was just a tool, a tool to be used to its best advantage. Return on investment?? I get my return everytime I use it. Just my two bits.
I've got more Bubba'd than original. Original's are an investment and neat to handle, but sporters are more fun. I'd never again alter an original milsurp ( I recall refinishing a No. 5 as a youth...).
But you can really use a sporter without cringing if rain clouds are on the horizon. If it slides off the tailgate and gets scratched...Meh. And the old saying " A rifle is only as good as it's glass "...can't do that to a virgin milsurp, a travesty.
As far as youth's these days; my son has 4 LE's, a MK 3 Ross and a 91/30 and "that waffenampted M44". He's never be able to afford a collection like that at original unaltered milsurp prices.
Thank god for Bubba? Um...no.
Curse him? Um... no.
Thing were one way, now they are another. It made sense to cut them down in the day, who wants to drag around a full wood milsurp? They are freaking heavy, and yes I've done it...drug that M39 Finn / M96 swede around. Harvested game too. Still silly heavy for the job.
But come on guys, stop it with the "Kids these days!" mantra. It just lessens the value of the advice that you offer.
Us older gent's did lots of stuff as a youth that we don't volunteer to talk about.
It makes no sense to cut up milsurps anymore, true.
But enough with the grumpy old guy muttering already.
But you can really use a sporter without cringing if rain clouds are on the horizon. If it slides off the tailgate and gets scratched...Meh. And the old saying " A rifle is only as good as it's glass "...can't do that to a virgin milsurp, a travesty.
As far as youth's these days; my son has 4 LE's, a MK 3 Ross and a 91/30 and "that waffenampted M44". He's never be able to afford a collection like that at original unaltered milsurp prices.
Thank god for Bubba? Um...no.
Curse him? Um... no.
Thing were one way, now they are another. It made sense to cut them down in the day, who wants to drag around a full wood milsurp? They are freaking heavy, and yes I've done it...drug that M39 Finn / M96 swede around. Harvested game too. Still silly heavy for the job.
But come on guys, stop it with the "Kids these days!" mantra. It just lessens the value of the advice that you offer.
Us older gent's did lots of stuff as a youth that we don't volunteer to talk about.
It makes no sense to cut up milsurps anymore, true.
But enough with the grumpy old guy muttering already.
