Springfield M1A ?

Standards of accuracy are in reference to the performance of the rifle upon initial inspection by the Army Department of Ordnance leading to the acceptance or rejection of the rifle. Prior to issue within the Ordnance system. The acceptance standard (MIL-R-45012A June 2 1959)) for the M14 was a 5 shot group at 100m and all shots to be within a 6.1" diameter circle or better. This was the Ordnance Department, not an international or NATO standard.

Sec. of Defence McNamera terminated the M14 procurement programme, closed a lot of military bases, promoted the AR15, and pushed the F-111, among other things. But the M14's issues arose before he was appointed by Kennedy. He simply assisted in it's demise.

As you have stated, both Norinco and Springfield Armory copies meet or exceed the maximum accuracy expectations of a standard M14 rifle. So to answer RHall's question, the answer would be NO, the more expensive option is not worth the expense for his intended purpose.
 
This is the best grouping I have shot to date with my norstinko.
Shot at 200m using Mexican matched Spanish surplus.

The rifle its self has had a light workover by me.
2007 stamped M14s
-NM guide and wolf springs
-Unitized and shimed gas system
-Springfield gen 3 mount(700rds and still holding zero:dancingbanana:)
-Burris Tactical rings
-Supersniper 20x glass
-USGI fiberglass stock thats tight on the action
-NM spec ream on the flash hider.
-Tightened up the oprod guide.
Total build cost came in at just shy of $1000. Im happy. Would I spend the $2300 for an M1A? Big negative on that one.
CIMG0548.jpg

Big thanks to Hungry for all the knowledge he has blessed us with. Thanks man :cheers:

Hungry here: Thanks for the kind words but I gotta impart all my knowledge on ya before I get run over by an errant bus driver at my high school. :D
 
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What product improvements were made to these rifles after their procurement termination, is moot.

I disagree. The post-procurement USGI M14 is more viable than ever.

Recent enhancements have transformed rack grade USGI M14s into great semi-auto DMRs. When enhancements are
combined with new modernization techniques the resulting M14 is an ultra reliable and extremely accurate SASS or DMR.

These enhancements and techniques are available on the civilian market and the Chinese M14 responds very well to them.


I've owned my first and last Springfield M1A... all of my M14s are Poly Tech and Norinco.
 
Since this topic has gone on the "accuracy topic" why is my m14 more accurate at the 200m then at the 100m? Also my norinco likes the norinco ammo more than IVI but the portugesse is still the best. @ 200m it prints 2" groups and the norinco is 2.5"-3" but IVI is like a little under 5". Also I have some Isreal ammo but this stuff prints nice @ 200 but I always get atleast 1 flyer out of five.
 
This is the best grouping I have shot to date with my norstinko.
Shot at 200m using Mexican matched Spanish surplus.

The rifle its self has had a light workover by me.
2007 stamped M14s
-NM guide and wolf springs
-Unitized and shimed gas system
-Springfield gen 3 mount(700rds and still holding zero:dancingbanana:)
-Burris Tactical rings
-Supersniper 20x glass
-USGI fiberglass stock thats tight on the action
-NM spec ream on the flash hider.
-Tightened up the oprod guide.
Total build cost came in at just shy of $1000. Im happy. Would I spend the $2300 for an M1A? Big negative on that one.
CIMG0548.jpg

Big thanks to Hungry for all the knowledge he has blessed us with. Thanks man :cheers:

Hungry here: Thanks for the kind words but I gotta impart all my knowledge on ya before I get run over by an errant bus driver at my high school. :D



WOW, all that for under 1K...sweet look'n rifle, personal preference but I'd have a beautiful walnut stock on that, excellent groupings...is that a stock Norinco trigger group?
 
Ok RHall, I'll be totally honest with you.

I own an M1A and have seen many Norcs, and honestly there is no comparison. Hands down you can tell that the M1A is a much better built rifle.

Here's the catch though:

I purchased mine 5 years ago for $1600, it came with a USGI 1963 TRW chrome lined barrel and a refinished USGI M14 stock. She'll shoot 1 MOA with my reloads, about 1.5 MOA or worse with surplus/factory ammo. It's very picky.

If you could still get a M1A like that for $1600 bucks over a Norc I'd tell you to go for it every time.

But $2600 for an all-new manufactured M1A? I just don't know that it's worth it over a Norc. (Wow I can't believe I just said that!) If you're the kind of guy that would enjoy the tinkering and building that you can do with a Norc then do yourself a favor and grab one and put some money into quality parts for it. You'll still come in way under the Springfield price tag and hopefully have a lot of fun doing it. There is something to be said for owning a "True Springfield", but as somebody said before, this isn't the company that was designing and building rifles between 1794-1968.

I do own two Springfields, M1A and 1911 Mil-Spec, and love them both, but if I had to buy another civilian M14 I can honestly say I'd probably go Norc unless I could easily afford to put the $2600 down on a Springfield.

Anyways, neither decision would be a bad one. Remember to post pics of which ever one you get, and rest assured that you made an educated decision.
 
Already got a ruger 10/22 that's being tweaked for pure accuracy and a fairly old Rem 700 BDL that can shoot 1.3" goups at 100 yards all day long (that was by another shooter, the stock's way too long for me to be shoot comfortably with). I suspect those groups will drop significantly once I stop using hunting ammo made in Yugoslavia and start using hand loads.

And let's say... we give the smith these specifications:

*Kreiger medium barrel profile; 20" barrel with a recessed target crown and chambered for 308 with gas system, receiver and bolt fitted to the barrel. Flash hider is replaced by a vortex more to protect the crown.

*Stock spring guide relpaced by a sadlak match grade spring guide and a brownells M1A spring kit.

*Trigger parts all polished to near mirror finish, disconnect squared. Weight set to approximately 4 lbs with as little over travel and take up as safety and reliability can permit.

*USGI stock completely refinished appropriate fill outs completed. Whole system is bedded, smith has choice on his own preference for bedding techniques.

*Iron sights removed and replaced by optics. For the sake of argument, smith enterprises mount, badger ordinance rings and a nightforce scope of some kind, (we'll exclude the price of the scope and rings in this particular case since they can be moved from rifle to rifle as necessary).

Ammo: Lapua 308 brass, 168 gr Sierra Match or Game kings, 42 gr of IMR4895, CCI primers



Would 2 MOA be possible doing that whilst coming under the budget of $2000?


My norincos shoot 2 MOA with about $700 in them...including the rifle.

I buy the rifle, add a GI fiberglass stock, GI sights, and a NM spring guide.

Then I do about 2 hours worth of tuning, and cut the barrel down to 18.5".

Then I shoot them.

If you did everything on your list I would be AMAZED if you couldn't get it to group under 2". I would expect closer to 1 inch although in my experience approaching the MOA mark with an M14 of any manufacture turns into an increasingly expensive and voodoo-intensive process. I notice I can reliably make rifles shoot 2 MOA or a little less, but after that the tweaks become less predictable. On the other hand none of my rifles ever get bedded, so someone who beds theirs would probably have different results.

I would not personally buy a SAI. But then I do not have the same goals as everyone else: I do not want pretty nor do I want fashionable nor do I want "pride of ownership."

I am interested in SHTF guns.

The rolex analogy was actually pretty apt, IMO. I would love to have a rolex for occasional use and frequent showing off, I guess. However, my Casio G-Shock is what I want to have when life throws me a curveball.

The SAIs are nice looking rifles, no doubt about it. If you want a rifle to show off and to group tightly off the bat I would say a NM SAI is not a bad choice. I would prefer a Norinco, though.

Although an LRB is what I would take if I could pick any manufacture at all.

One thing I find a little funny is that in Canada we have this perception that there are SAI M1As and there are Norincos.

SAI is A manunfacturer of M14 clones. There are several...Fed Ord, Smith, and so on. People here tend to think of the SAIs as the "real" rifles and Norincos as the knock-off. But Springfield and SAI are not the same company. SAI is making a knock-off, Fed Ord is making a knock-off, LRB is making a knock-off, Norinco is making a knock-off...

They are ALL knock-offs of the original! Whose copy do you want to own?
 
Pietro Beretta
WOW, all that for under 1K...sweet look'n rifle, personal preference but I'd have a beautiful walnut stock on that, excellent groupings...is that a stock Norinco trigger group?[/QUOTE]

Yep tried to do it on a budget and I think I did ok. I have plenty of other guns with wood on em had to switch it up a bit. An yes, slightly tweeked Norinco trigger group.
 
The Specifications such as required for accuracy were created that way because that was the standard accuracy requirements for just about any nation and their main battle rifles at the time.

I wanted to expand on this comment, the Lee-Enfield Enforcer Rifle which is a No.4 Action chambered to 7.62mm NATO (upgraded L38A1/Envoy Rifle), when doing field tests before its adoption the British Police mentioned.

With the exception of the particular example of the T4 rifle tested all gave good patterns with 3" groups at 100 yards being readily obtainable.

So that was considered in the early 1970's good enough for police Marksman use on a rifle that was to idealy be used up to 700 yards by the police.

So really is the max requirement of 6" groups the US listed as maximum all that much "bigger" compared to the requirements of a "accurate" rifle?

Dimitri
 
Buy both ... shoot them ... decide which one you wish to keep ... or keep both ... simple answer ... ;)

Otokiak
Rankin Inlet, NU
CANADA
 
I agree, the fit and finish on a Norinco M14 is terrible when compared to an off-the-shelf production Springfield but they do work.

Basically, you need to replace a lot of parts on a Norinco if you want a quality build, although everyone swears by the Norinco receivers and use them as foundations for some of the best M14s.

I don't frankly trust Chinese manufacturers and "I" would personally want my own Norc receiver rockwell tested before I would believe the hype around these receivers.

China isn't stupid. They will build a rifle the "cheapest" way they know how and they will change their production tactics mid-way and fly on rumor that their receivers are the hardest in the world.

Again, I would have my own tested and would never believe it.

Yes, you can build a quality M14 on a Norc for $1200 but do you want too? Let a pro like M14doctor build you one instead and buy that. All of the requisite safety checks will have been done and you'll get a nice quality, reliable rifle with a nice stock to boot.

Having said that, if you've already considering a $2300 rifle, there are a lot of choices open to you. Lots.

For hunting, I'd buy a bolt-action and scope and accessories. No need for a semi-auto while hunting.

My rig was about $2000. I like it a lot.

Remington 700 LTR (.308) $1150
Falcon Menace 18mmx56mm Scope $500
Burris XTR 1/4" (low profile) 30mm rings $80
Over-sized bolt knob $40 + $80 install
Armstech Mag-xtender $40
Getsometactical dot ca black rubber cheek rest $60
Getsometactical dot ca black rifle sling $40
Uncle Mike's Sling Swivels, 2 Pack $10

DSCN2040.jpg


DSCN2042.jpg


DSCN2043.jpg


This one will last a lifetime.

LTR308,

Nice rig!!

is the Armstech Mag-xtender available in Canada?

AF
 
I think I'll let one of our fellow Main Battle rifle leaders to speak for me as he echo's my sentiments on the subject. (excerpt taken from the faq section)

I know most pundits will most likely not read this and continue to parade their opinion as law. But I like to keep an open mind and experience alot of things:cool:

I have shot both SA and Norc, now I own two very wonderful customized Norcs, both capable of shooting far more accurate than I am able to shoot (for the time being)

Personally, I like getting my hands dirty :)

“Free advice is often worth a lot less than you paid for it”,
And of course,
“Your personal mileage may vary.”
Remember also that at this time, the supply of M-14 type rifles, old or new, is limited,
and that there will be no more new Chinese or original US GI M-14 type rifles coming to market in the foreseeable future.

Like the great Canuck philosopher HUNGRY says,
“Don’t buy one … buy two …”
and get them quick,
before the supply runs out,
and your #### falls off”.

Norinco VS Springfield …a Canadian perspective
Norinco M14 rifles are made primarily of FORGED parts, with excellent dimensional tolerances, but with some possible variations in heat treatment and assembly. In Canada, if you buy your new or used Chinese M-14 from a reputable dealer, you will probably have some type of warranty. The vendor may also have some spare parts, and a repair/maintenance service, to keep your Chinese import shooting as long as you want. With the recent explosion in popularity of the Chinese M-14 type rifle in the Canadian market s, there is a wealth of information, accessories and services available in Canada to support these fine firearms.

If you view the Norinco [ M-305 or M-14 or M-14S ] as only a stripped FORGED receiver, with very close to US GI dimensional specifications, you can never go wrong. Think of all those extra parts that come attached to the receiver as [ mostly usable ] free bonuses. If you like a hands on, do it yourself project, get a Chinese M-14 Simply do a bit of tuning, add the requisite US GI parts, and you have one of the best rifles available, and at only 1/3 or so of the cost of an equivalent Springfield M1A.
BUT,
for those who don't want to get their hands dirty working on their own rifles, or who don’t want to pay for a gunsmith to do it for them, the Springfield M1A can be a very good choice. Springfield offers a lifetime warranty on the M1A. Unfortunately, this lifetime warranty may be required even on a brand new Springfield, because, in my experience [ and in many other M1A owner’s experience ] there may not be much difference in quality control between the new US and the new Chinese made versions, There have been considerable complaints that many of the M1A CAST receivers are not correct dimensionally. Aside from the CAST receiver, new Springfield M1A rifles no longer use surplus US GI internal parts, and in their place, SA has turned to more cast parts, of varying quality, from various suppliers.

Known Springfield Armory M1A deficiencies
Springfield Armory, Inc. M1A rifles may have some or all of the following deficiencies:

1) The receiver scope mounting hole and mount surfaces may be out of specification, which makes fitting non-adjustable scope mounts difficult.

2.) The receiver bridge primary (bolt closing) firing pin retracting surface can be mislocated. The camming surface of the tang on the firing pin should be inspected carefully for damage. If the firing pin tang is damaged, the firing pin should be replaced with a non-chromed firing pin. With firing pins that are not chromium plated, most of the damage will be on the firing pin instead of the receiver bridge. The harder surface of the chromium plated firing pin will cut a groove into the receiver bridge deeper and sooner .. Note that light polish wear is normal on the retracting surface but a groove cut into the receiver by the firing pin is not.

3) The bolt may be cast, and have cast parts. These cast bolts are not top quality, and especially have a bad habit of losing the cast extractor

4) The receiver locking lug engagement surface is slightly misaligned. Lapping the bolt to the receiver can resolve this, and is recommended to evenly distributes stress on the receiver.

5) The bottom of the bolt roller makes contact with the receiver when the bolt is in battery, preventing the bolt from closing completely. The fix is to grind a half round relief cut into the receiver, to accept the bolt roller when fully locked in the down position. This will save replacing the bolt or bolt roller, which otherwise could be destroyed rather quickly.
6) The receiver groove that takes the tab of the op rod may be undersize, rough, vary in size, and not cut straight. This can cause rough functioning, unreliability, quick wear on that tiny op rod tab, and op rods eventually jumping out of the track. This also can cause extra work when properly fitting a replacement GI or Chinese op rod with an unworn, full size tab.

7.) The receiver rear sight elevation knob indexing detents wear prematurely due to too soft surface hardness. The fix is to install an elevation repair disk.

8.) The holes for the bolt lock pin are too small. The bolt lock roll pins could be forced in which may cause one of the bolt lock window receptors to break. The simple solution is to use a slightly smaller diameter pin.

9.) Some of the earlier Stainless Steel barreled “loaded” rifles, had the chambers cut TOO FAST = very rough = reamer chatter = poor extraction and reliability.

10.) The rear sight pocket is slightly too short. This results in a slight over hang of the rear sight base at the rear.. This springs the rear sight cover more than it should. The front edge of the cover can be lightly filed down, which requires less force to install the rear sight cover.
 
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