SR 15/16 Review By Garand Thumb

[r34skyline]

When you say overpriced, do you mean they should be around the DD and similar price point?

Ignoring of course that all KAC rifles include:

Ambi bolt release/catch
Ambi mag release
Built in sling cups
LMT buttstock
Includes front and rear iron sights (not plastic ones)
Includes the enhanced bolt features (granted you don't like this)
2 stage match trigger
Mag well lock

If we put a price point on just those items (not the enhanced gas block, flash hider, etc.) then is KAC still overpriced?

It isn't overpriced if those are exactly the features you want and you want all those featureset.

If not then yes it is.

Kac triggers while nice I would prefer geisseles ssa-e.
Plenty of other stocks and accessories offer sling cups and I have used 0 of them so far the sling cups that is.
Lmt buttstock. Eh. They are good but I prefer the acs.
The ambi bolt catch. Neat but to me useless because i don't use it for anything but administrative use.
The ambi mag catch. I can get a norgon piece.
I've never seen anything their buis does that other quality irons don't as far as filling the role of buis.
The enhanced bolt. This seems to be the big difference. The double edged sword being I'm sure it performs better than the milspec but usually harder to find spares for.
Magwell lock? Wtf since when is useless crap like that a feature?
As for the flash hider again if you specifically want that flash hider/muzzle device. I personally love the pws fsc556 and run it on all ar pattern stuff.
The gas block. What exactly does this gas block do that a dd or bcm low pro gas block won't? This is a legit question I don't know.

Don't get me wrong I think they make great rifles, but unless you are specifically looking for those exact parts I don't see them being worth it.

Especially when you go to some of the SR25 variants that are some 2 grand more than a HK MR308. I'm sorry I very much doubt the SR25 would outperform that.

 

[Stoner99]

If I'm not mistaken, they were also the first to do this. Correct me if I'm wrong.
Everyone else just copied off their R&D

A lot of that is done towards company like KAC,HK,Colt Canada.

Guns are made for specific purposes and criteria. You buy a KAC rifle you have a Military made rifle. If you are shooting commercial ammo and have more commercial concerns and needs then it may not be worth going that route.

Some people want other companies in there guns like Gieselle Triggers etc. The KAC Trigger is damm nice and I would take it over a few of Gieselle options accept for the higher end ones. With KAC you get a full package. Compared to prices of other guns it’s to be expected in Canada.

This has beaten to death and rehashed time and again.

If KAC Rifle was made in Canada I could see it going for $250 to $500 more than a Colt Canada rifle. As the more KAC produces the price would go down over time.

Your actually getting a lot out of the gun for the price it cost. But it very expensive compared to rack commercial grade stuff. If you want it and the price is worth it too then get it.

But the usually “It’s over priced nonsense” is ignorant to say the least.

 

[yohann160]

The ambi mag catch. I can get a norgon piece.

I would personally go with Troy's offering; the Norgon is too close to the bolt catch for my taste. Don't forget that KAC's version of this is fenced off like the standard magazine release button to avoid accidental dropping of magazine (We have all seen Mars Attacks and Jack Black's M14 fail)

The enhanced bolt. This seems to be the big difference. The double edged sword being I'm sure it performs better than the milspec but usually harder to find spares for.

The whole point here is that odds are you won't need a spare. They are rated for 20k rounds by KAC IIRC. That being said, the KAC bolt repair kit is available if you should want one. Don't count on having to use it in your lifetime, however.

As for the flash hider again if you specifically want that flash hider/muzzle device. I personally love the pws fsc556 and run it on all ar pattern stuff.

My Mod 1 came with an A2 birdcage and it is staying on there.

The gas block. What exactly does this gas block do that a dd or bcm low pro gas block won't? This is a legit question I don't know.

My Mod 1 has a lo pro pinned gas block, I have never read anything really special about it. However, the Mod 2 gas block is threaded/indexed onto the barrel which completely deletes the possibility of the gas block leaking or moving. Couple that with something like the LWRC enhanced DI bolt carrier and you have something to write home about. Of course, the goal here is reducing gas loss which enables you to use a smaller gas port (less gas) to cycle the action.

 

[Kidd X]

When you say overpriced, do you mean they should be around the DD and similar price point?

Ignoring of course that all KAC rifles include:

Ambi bolt release/catch Who cares, it can be added later if desired.
Ambi mag releaseWho cares, can be added later if desired.
Built in sling cupsWho cares, there are other methods of attachment.
LMT buttstockWho cares, a stock is a stock unless you're after storage.
Includes front and rear iron sights (not plastic ones)Who cares, you can add these later and use a brand/style you prefer.
Includes the enhanced bolt features (granted you don't like this)No evidence to support their bolt being leaps ahead of a standard one.
2 stage match trigger Who cares, a trigger can be added later if desired.
Mag well lockUseless crap..

If we put a price point on just those items (not the enhanced gas block, flash hider, etc.) then is KAC still overpriced?
Yes they are over priced. There is nothing a KAC can do that a quality milspec rifle can't do as well. Filthy 14 comes to mind with regards to endurance and plain old abuse. I doubt the KAC would have lasted longer and I certainly don't care if it did. 40,000 rounds of hard use/abuse is more than enough for anyone's purposes. As for KAC's gas block, please explain what it does that any other quality set screwed and pinned gas block doesn't do??

It isn't overpriced if those are exactly the features you want and you want all those featureset.

If not then yes it is.

Kac triggers while nice I would prefer geisseles ssa-e.
Plenty of other stocks and accessories offer sling cups and I have used 0 of them so far the sling cups that is.
Lmt buttstock. Eh. They are good but I prefer the acs.
The ambi bolt catch. Neat but to me useless because i don't use it for anything but administrative use.
The ambi mag catch. I can get a norgon piece.
I've never seen anything their buis does that other quality irons don't as far as filling the role of buis.
The enhanced bolt. This seems to be the big difference. The double edged sword being I'm sure it performs better than the milspec but usually harder to find spares for.
Magwell lock? Wtf since when is useless crap like that a feature?
As for the flash hider again if you specifically want that flash hider/muzzle device. I personally love the pws fsc556 and run it on all ar pattern stuff.
The gas block. What exactly does this gas block do that a dd or bcm low pro gas block won't? This is a legit question I don't know.

Don't get me wrong I think they make great rifles, but unless you are specifically looking for those exact parts I don't see them being worth it.

Especially when you go to some of the SR25 variants that are some 2 grand more than a HK MR308. I'm sorry I very much doubt the SR25 would outperform that.

Very solid points.

A lot of that is done towards company like KAC,HK,Colt Canada.

Guns are made for specific purposes and criteria. You buy a KAC rifle you have a Military made rifle. If you are shooting commercial ammo and have more commercial concerns and needs then it may not be worth going that route.

Some people want other companies in there guns like Gieselle Triggers etc. The KAC Trigger is damm nice and I would take it over a few of Gieselle options accept for the higher end ones. With KAC you get a full package. Compared to prices of other guns it’s to be expected in Canada.

This has beaten to death and rehashed time and again.

If KAC Rifle was made in Canada I could see it going for $250 to $500 more than a Colt Canada rifle. As the more KAC produces the price would go down over time.

Your actually getting a lot out of the gun for the price it cost. But it very expensive compared to rack commercial grade stuff. If you want it and the price is worth it too then get it.

But the usually “It’s over priced nonsense” is ignorant to say the least.

Can you tell me what unit is using KAC guns? Last time I checked the vogue brand/style of AR rifle was the HK 416. The SR25 is being replaced by HK rifles as well. Again, not saying that KAC makes junk as they most certainly do not, but their wares are not any better than others and are not worth the price.

I would personally go with Troy's offering; the Norgon is too close to the bolt catch for my taste. Don't forget that KAC's version of this is fenced off like the standard magazine release button to avoid accidental dropping of magazine (We have all seen Mars Attacks and Jack Black's M14 fail)

You missed the point, the ambi release can be changed. Oh and f**K Troy and their desire to hire murderers and anti gun clowns.

The whole point here is that odds are you won't need a spare. They are rated for 20k rounds by KAC IIRC. That being said, the KAC bolt repair kit is available if you should want one. Don't count on having to use it in your lifetime, however.
I don't care what the odds are, the reality is the bolt is specialized and will be both pricey and difficult to source. Standard milspec parts are easy to come by.


My Mod 1 came with an A2 birdcage and it is staying on there.
The uber awesome KAC comes with an A2?? What a joke.


My Mod 1 has a lo pro pinned gas block, I have never read anything really special about it. However, the Mod 2 gas block is threaded/indexed onto the barrel which completely deletes the possibility of the gas block leaking or moving. Couple that with something like the LWRC enhanced DI bolt carrier and you have something to write home about. Of course, the goal here is reducing gas loss which enables you to use a smaller gas port (less gas) to cycle the action.
A pinned gas block doesn't leak or move either, been using those for over half a century. A quality low pro gas block offers both set screws and pinning which also won't move or leak.. Nothing special about the KAC block other than it's proprietary.

In the GREEN and black.

 

[yohann160]

A2 FH's are great and you know it.

Proponent of which add on ambi bolt catch? Magpul bad lever perhaps?

You forgot to rip on KAC's proprietary intermediate gas tube by the way.

 

[Kidd X]

A2 FH's are great and you know it.

Proponent of which add on ambi bolt catch? Magpul bad lever perhaps?

You forgot to rip on KAC's proprietary intermediate gas tube by the way.

The A2 is average, there are much better options out there and one would think that the great KAC would have sourced the greatest. They have their MAMS and their uber cool three prong(how original) flash hider, why sell the rifle with the boring old A2??

The Bad lever is an option although I see no need for it or any other ambi bolt release. To be honest the BAD lever is a bad design that leads to more failures of the bolt catch than anything.

The intermediate gas system has merit but it never caught on, or perhaps it is patented? Other manufacturers have settled on midlength and it's pretty well a standard now.

 

[bananarama]

who sells kac in canada now that farmboy has retired?

 

[yohann160]

Yes, the bad lever is perfectly dreadful. What else is there?

Novekse has an intermediate gas tube, unsure whether it is KAC's length.

A2 is light, costs practically nothing and its performance is underrated.

 

[Kidd X]

who sells kac in canada now that farmboy has retired?

The Calgary Shooting Centre is now the KAC distributor

 

[bananarama]

The A2 is average, there are much better options out there and one would think that the great KAC would have sourced the greatest. They have their MAMS and their uber cool three prong(how original) flash hider, why sell the rifle with the boring old A2??

The Bad lever is an option although I see no need for it or any other ambi bolt release. To be honest the BAD lever is a bad design that leads to more failures of the bolt catch than anything.

The intermediate gas system has merit but it never caught on, or perhaps it is patented? Other manufacturers have settled on midlength and it's pretty well a standard now.

my noveske spr has an int gas system, it is extremely smooth

 

[Kidd X]

Yes, the bad lever is perfectly dreadful. What else is there?

Novekse has an intermediate gas tube, unsure whether it is KAC's length.

A2 is light, costs practically nothing and its performance is underrated.

There are other similar abortions to the bad lever. There's no need for any ambi bolt release.

 

[Sinasta]

TDC finally realized his VPN is working.

 

[greentips]

This may change soon because USSS has just put a solicitation for a new carbine.

USSS uniformed officer at WH with 11.5 KAC and A2 compensator, in 2014

USSS has 1300 uniform agents

Based on the KAC's contract value over the years, I guess they have like 800 to 1000 of these rifles.

Later they moved to Aimpoint micro.

Overall, KAC's sale to the government is mainly the DoD. It is true that in 2016 and 17 their revenues directly from the US government had drastically dropped, from the days of M110.




And they buy parts every year to support this system.
2016

This is a combined synopsis/solicitation for commercial items prepared in accordance with the format prescribed in Subpart 12.6 of the Federal Acquisition Regulation (FAR), as supplemented with additional information included in this notice. A subsequent solicitation document will not be issued. This requirement is for brand name only for Knight's Armament Company (KAC) SR-16 rifle parts, components, and assemblies (please see the attached brand name only substantiation). This requirement is set aside for small business. NAICS 332994.

The U.S. Secret Service intends to purchase the following:


Brand name only for Knight's Armament Company (KAC) SR-16 rifle parts, components, and assemblies with the following specifications and in accordance with the USSS BOM list (see Addendum 1).


1. SCOPE / SPECIFICATIONS:
The contractor shall provide standard production and certain nonstandard production Original Equipment Manufacturer (OEM) KAC factory approved parts, components, assemblies, and accessories, in conformance with the U.S. Secret Service (USSS) Build of Material (BOM) approved parts list established by this service and incorporated into current issued generation KAC SR-16 rifles. These parts, components, assemblies, and accessories are for the maintenance, repair, and upgrade of the issued KAC SR-16 rifle fielded by this agency. The contractor shall furnish same for delivery to the JJRTC during the life of this contract. Contractors shall further ensure that:


a. Supplied parts, components, assemblies, and accessories must conform to OEM KAC factory standards and specifications for design and construction of the USSS issued SR-16 rifle, to include standard and non-standard factory items, and must not violate existing KAC factory warranty terms for replacement parts as afforded this service by KAC for the current generation SR-16 rifle;

b. Parts, components, assemblies, and accessories must be identified utilizing the KAC factory part numbers, SKU, UPC, and nomenclature as depicted on the USSS BOM list (see Addendum 1), whether supplied as standard or nonstandard factory items;


c. Parts, components, assemblies, and accessories must be supplied exactly as specified in the USSS BOM list provided by this service (see Addendum 1). Contractors must not substitute standard parts where non-standard parts are called for in the BOM list unless otherwise permitted in the BOM.


d. Parts, components, assemblies, and accessories must be furnished in new, unused condition and may not be refinished, repaired, rebuilt, overhauled, salvaged, or remanufactured. Items must be packed in original packaging.


2. VERIFICATION/SAMPLES/DOCUMENTATION


a. The Contractor shall (per Section 1.c above) confer with the Government's Technical Representative to review, clarify, and confirm all specifications herein prior to proceeding with any purchases, orders, or shipments when providing substitute items listed on the BOM.

2017

Description
The United States Secret Service (USSS) intends to negotiate on a sole source basis with Knight's Armament (KAC) in Titusville, FL, for weapons, original equipment manufacturer (OEM) parts, components, assemblies and accessories proprietary to Knight's Armament. The Government intends to negotiate a Blanket Purchase Agreement (BPA) for a Base Year and Three One-Year Options to cover the USSS current requirements. The NAICS Code is 332994 - Small Arms, Ordnance, and Ordnance Accessories Manufacturing. This notice is neither a Request for Proposal nor a solicitation for offers. The Government intends to solicit and negotiate with one source under the authority of FAR 6.301-1; this is due to the proprietary of the Knight's Armament SR16E3 and providing OEM KAC parts. A determination by the Government not to compete this proposed requirement, on a full and open competitive basis upon receipt of responses to this notice, is solely within the discretion of the Government. No formal solicitation package is available. THIS IS NOT A REQUEST FOR A COMPETITIVE PROPOSAL. Any response to this notice must be submitted in writing to the Government and show clear and convincing evidence that another source is capable of meeting the Government's requirements and that competition of the requirement would be advantageous to the Government. If no written responses are received at least five (5) days after the initial publication of this posting, the BPA will be awarded without further notice. PHONE CALLS WILL NOT BE ACCEPTED. Questions and comments pertaining to this procurement shall be emailed to Danielle.donaldson@usss.dhs.gov.

And awarded...

Award Date
8/18/2017
$600,000

 

[greentips]

So for curiosity ( trying to avoid doing real work....procrastination ), I tracked down KAC SR16 sales to the US govt't.

The first SR16 E3 URX sale seems to be around 2008, and then there are a few more buys in 2012 and 2013. The USSS also bought a bunch of uppers around 2014.

Based on the value of the contracts, it looks like the USSS has about 300 to 400 SR16.

 

[Kidd X]

So for curiosity ( trying to avoid doing real work....procrastination ), I tracked down KAC SR16 sales to the US govt't.

The first SR16 E3 URX sale seems to be around 2008, and then there are a few more buys in 2012 and 2013. The USSS also bought a bunch of uppers around 2014.

Based on the value of the contracts, it looks like the USSS has about 300 to 400 SR16.

That's a fair pile of rifles..

 

[yohann160]

TDC finally realized his VPN is working.

I see what you did there.

 

[Michael Dempster]

+1 for Flannel Daddy

 

[beltfed]

With respect to Knight’s advancements regarding integrated ambi-controls, bolt & gas changes: they are proprietary and patented.
The reason you don’t see the rest of the industry going this way is due to those patents.
Integrated controls as opposed to add on ones? That’s kind of a no brainer.
Bolts are something like 35-40% stronger as I recall from standard spec. - why wouldn’t you want one.
Intermediate gas over carbine length? There is actual scientific testing behind what they did, and it is a noticeable improvement in shooting.
The old argument that standard ARs are plentiful and work just fine are true to some degree, but they are getting tired.
The design is old and there are obvious flaws. It is interesting that Stoner himself knew that and took up with KAC to redesign the system.
Good things come from innovation, and KAC are really at the forefront of that.

 

[Kidd X]

With respect to Knight’s advancements regarding integrated ambi-controls, bolt & gas changes: they are proprietary and patented.
The reason you don’t see the rest of the industry going this way is due to those patents.True.
Integrated controls as opposed to add on ones? That’s kind of a no brainer.Why do you need ambi controls? Been using the original design for half a century without issue.
Bolts are something like 35-40% stronger as I recall from standard spec. - why wouldn’t you want one.proprietary and unnecessary.
Intermediate gas over carbine length? There is actual scientific testing behind what they did, and it is a noticeable improvement in shooting.Would like to know why their length wasn't adopted.
The old argument that standard ARs are plentiful and work just fine are true to some degree, but they are getting tired.Tired how? Still killing bad people with regularity. What is more "advanced" that can replace it? For that matter the AK47 is much older and is still killing people with regularity.
The design is old and there are obvious flaws. It is interesting that Stoner himself knew that and took up with KAC to redesign the system.
Good things come from innovation, and KAC are really at the forefront of that.What has KAC put out that is revolutionary?

In the green.

 

[r34skyline]

With respect to Knight’s advancements regarding integrated ambi-controls, bolt & gas changes: they are proprietary and patented.
The reason you don’t see the rest of the industry going this way is due to those patents.
Integrated controls as opposed to add on ones? That’s kind of a no brainer.
Bolts are something like 35-40% stronger as I recall from standard spec. - why wouldn’t you want one.
Intermediate gas over carbine length? There is actual scientific testing behind what they did, and it is a noticeable improvement in shooting.
The old argument that standard ARs are plentiful and work just fine are true to some degree, but they are getting tired.
The design is old and there are obvious flaws. It is interesting that Stoner himself knew that and took up with KAC to redesign the system.
Good things come from innovation, and KAC are really at the forefront of that.

When it comes to the integrated controls I'm still not sure what the point of the ambi bolt catch.

The mag release i believe you can buy separately. And as I mentioned before there are other options. And the hk mr223a3/416a5 offers both sometimes at a lower cost than a sr15...

As for the snazzy bolt. As I understand it the kac bolt will work on a milspec gun but a milspec bolt won't work in a kac gun correct? Now how much stronger is the kac bolt over a lmt enchanced? So even if you have to have that party piece why not just run a kac bolt in a regular di gun?

As for intermediate? It's different from midlength?

As far as the tired milspec ars. They seem to almost universally getting swapped with the hk416... which leads me to ask what does the kac do that the 416 doesn't?

I do agree with the innovation is important part. But no way is the kac worth more than the hk. Nor does it perform better even though fairly often I see them priced higher.