SR equipment discussion

Gunnerlove said:
I am not ignoring it I just refuse to accept that there are only 20 people within a couple hours of Ottawa interested in Service Rifle.
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By the same token, I refuse to believe that when you have matches where the "spaceguns" aren't winning in an area that has >10x the population of Ottawa within a couple hours drive, and still only get 20 civie shooters show up, that changing the rules is somehow going to net you more. Half of the ORA matches are shot in Ottawa, and the turnout is no different than at Borden. You just get a few more guys from QC and the Ottawa area and a few less guys from SW ON.

The military turnout is also similar as what you get at NSCC.

Longshot said:
My question should have been phrased when was the last time a soldier shooting issue kit placed first overall at nscc? It wasn't last year.I don't remember the last time....maybe Mike Gray years ago.
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Mike Gray in 2007.
 
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To comment on what Longshot said about the BCRA championship last year. We had competitors filling 88 of 96 spots but were actually over sold as there were a number of paid no shows and some walk ons on the day of.

The next fight will be keeping the numbers up with the looming military budget cuts.
 
I think to fill civy spots there has to be some sort of attempt to let people know about these matches otherwise we are just spinning our wheels.Army folks get paid to show up and honestly most probably wouldnt if they werent getting paid.
 
I don't know that its advertising. CQB and SR are advertised the same way here, and some CQB matches have 60-70 civies shooters, and they have to turn away half as many due to space limitations.
 
Longshot said:
I think to fill civy spots there has to be some sort of attempt to let people know about these matches otherwise we are just spinning our wheels.Army folks get paid to show up and honestly most probably wouldnt if they werent getting paid.
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Agreed, get a sticky up with your PRA's dates and let people know what is coming up when and how to get in touch with the organizers. Give lists if equipment and gear to bring, ammo, etc, etc, etc.

I like to hear about east coast SR events too from the NSRA. Rarely hear anything at all out there.

For what it's worth, we can include up coming matches at the different orgs as a regular segment on the show. We don't have the reach of CGN or other forums but we can try to help.
 
Gunnerlove said:
The next fight will be keeping the numbers up with the looming military budget cuts.
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I'm already fighting this. I can get pay for guys - but as of now we don't have enough ammo to shoot the PWT for every member - let alone training or competitions.


I wonder if part of the reason people don't want to shoot SR is the complexity - that you need to learn to read wind, you need to know your drops, you need to learn the scoring, etc.

Not that I'm saying that any of those are not great to know - but there is a certain effort required and a pretty steep learning curve for new shooters.
 
Gunnerlove said:
I am not ignoring it I just refuse to accept that there are only 20 people within a couple hours of Ottawa interested in Service Rifle.
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This is because the service rifle population has been split between ORA ( the official PR) and OSA (Keith's club/range) in the area.

One of the ORA SR's program's main purpose is to train and provide qualification for the LFCA CFSAC team, and civilians are welcome. It runs the CFSAC cof.

OSA appears to be holding more influence over NSCC. Their competitions are geared towards the preparation for the NSCC.

When we talked about SR in Ontario, some people are shooting at the ORA, some are shooting at the OSA. It is difficult to shoot at both ORA and OSA because there are only a limited number of weekends in summer, and it is inevitable there are conflicts. So it ends up splitting up the shooters, especially for matches in Ottawa area (OSA is closer to Ottawa). I would love to go shoot at OSA and see what they do, but it is difficult in the last few years because of scheduling conflicts with the ORA (which I had to attend with the team as CFSAC qualification takes priority).

As for now, all the SR matches in CFB Borden have been filled up.
 
OSA is actually closer to Toronto than Ottawa - I know I make the drive enough!

I suspect that CFSAC CoF is going to start to change.

The ORA SR dates don't conflict with any OSA SR dates. I have the calendar right here. I am trying to get unit support to shoot as many of both as I can. I am very keen to shoot some of the ORA matches this summer.

I think if both organizations are focused on marksmanship skills and build the foundations, shooters will do well in either competition.

On that note, I'm not sure how any one could prepare for CFSAC. 2011 CFSAC did not even have a rule book and was so far from the traditional matches that it's focus seemed to be on disqualifying new shooters. I hear last year was better.

The DCRA does not seem to take a strong leadership role with the PRAs. They don't seem to support SR, and as a result I'm sure the PRA's are not coordinated on a national level.
 
It isn't just the different SR competitions that draw shooters away from each other. Many of SR shooters are also PR shooters. This year ORA have conflicts between PR and SR and there are conflicts between ORA and OSA PR and SR matches.

You would get more support from PRAs and the DCRA if more SR shooters participated more in the meetings. Having more members than other disciplines doesn't count for much if those members don't attend meetings and voice their concerns about policy. The ORA has its AGM on March 2nd.
 
Longshot said:
I think to fill civy spots there has to be some sort of attempt to let people know about these matches otherwise we are just spinning our wheels.Army folks get paid to show up and honestly most probably wouldnt if they werent getting paid.
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You fellas don't get it do you. When the Units are paying the soldiers will shoot. When i was getting paid to shoot a bazillion years ago, I tried to cajole a number of friends to come out to BCRA SR, no go. Most of the guys on our rifle team wouldn't shoot on their own. When I quit the Reserves I stopped shooting SR because I couldn't afford it with a young family, and I had a rifle. We're talking niche market here.Civy's were keeping the BCRA SR going a few years ago. We should be talking about filling Civy spots because when the Units pull their funding we won't be getting sellouts anymore. Spaceguns, optics and trigger pulls will be the least of our problems.
R.I.P BCRA SR Dustoff Match April ...
 
I think this whole equipment thread is really talking about how to get more participation in the sport from the civilian side, including CF members shooting on their own. You have a point about the sport dying off if the units don't have funding to participate. From what I am reading in the news about defense budget cuts that seems quite likely. I wasn't a shooter in the 90s so I don't know anything about the Service Conditions scene in that era. I don't know what happened then to keep it alive but measures seem to need to be taken now.

So two related questions can be asked:

1) If you don't shoot Service Conditions, why not? (This is not actually a useful question to ask since it focuses on the negatives......lets stay away from that one)

2) If you do shoot Service Conditions - why do you? What do you enjoy about it? If we can focus on this and get the word out then it will grow, or at least have a chance to grow. Maybe we need a thread or a sticky on this?

I honestly believe that orgs that want to see an increase in SR need to promote it and provide an easy path. The ORA has done this with CQB. It is an introduction to SR in a lot of ways. It's how I became interested. It could work for others.
 
Gunnerlove said:
So if I am wrong and new shooters are not intimidated by open class gear (including optics) why the poor attendance?

See new thread.
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Marketing, and recruiting. Get somebody to run some clinics like Hungry does. From the outside, SR seems clubby and inaccessible. Publicize it, and help shooters who might be a little intimidated by the Big Army Rifle The Big Army way thing realize that it's not that huge a deal, and SR matches are going to start selling out...
 
trigger'06 said:
You fellas don't get it do you. When the Units are paying the soldiers will shoot. When i was getting paid to shoot a bazillion years ago, I tried to cajole a number of friends to come out to BCRA SR, no go. Most of the guys on our rifle team wouldn't shoot on their own. When I quit the Reserves I stopped shooting SR because I couldn't afford it with a young family, and I had a rifle. We're talking niche market here.Civy's were keeping the BCRA SR going a few years ago. We should be talking about filling Civy spots because when the Units pull their funding we won't be getting sellouts anymore. Spaceguns, optics and trigger pulls will be the least of our problems.
R.I.P BCRA SR Dustoff Match April ...
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I have already been told to work with 50% of last years budget. We can try to save money here and there but it will mean half the shooters or half the training.
 
As a civilian shooter, I'd like to throw my two cents in FWIW...

I shot in my first SR match at Connaught in 2011. I showed up with my 14.5" Norinco and a Falcon 1.5-5x scope. My scores were shameful, but I didn't come DFL either, and that's all that mattered to me. The second match I shot at saw my scores improve a little, up a few more spots from near the bottom.

I know with 100% absolute certainty that my scores were the result of my errors, not my equipment. I dropped mags, I missed movers entirely, I even shot on the wrong target once. BUT I had FUN!!! Laughing on the line, laughing in the butts, laughing in the mess, laughing in barracks.

Maybe more civi shooters would show up if they knew how much fun SR was and that nobody is going to laugh you off the range with equipment that isn't a space gun. In fact, I think someone showing up with a spacegun that doesn't perform well is far more embarrassing.

I think overcoming the fitness curve is probably a problem for some guys who are used to seeing their sight picture from a bench, and not after a rundown or shooting from a position.
 
kombayotch said:
A hyper accurate rifle isn't going to help the majority of people in the standing or kneeling positions. There isn't a rifle on the line that isn't capable of making hits at 100 or 200, yet that is where most people dump the majority of their points. It isn't from pulling shots into the 4, its from missing the target completely.

Local range being short hasn't prevented people from going out and shooting the bolt guns out to 1000 yards now, has it?
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100 and 200 yards kneeling is all my practice will consist of at my local range this season. Well, standing at 100 as well obviously. I agree. This is where I lost my points in my first attempt this year, and is where ill focus my practice. Even just focusing on positional shooting at 100 will have a profound impact on the fundamentals. The key is to get off the damn benches when visiting a range, and actually practice shooting and not pulling a trigger...
 
sgmacken said:
As a civilian shooter, I'd like to throw my two cents in FWIW...

I shot in my first SR match at Connaught in 2011. I showed up with my 14.5" Norinco and a Falcon 1.5-5x scope. My scores were shameful, but I didn't come DFL either, and that's all that mattered to me. The second match I shot at saw my scores improve a little, up a few more spots from near the bottom.

I know with 100% absolute certainty that my scores were the result of my errors, not my equipment. I dropped mags, I missed movers entirely, I even shot on the wrong target once. BUT I had FUN!!! Laughing on the line, laughing in the butts, laughing in the mess, laughing in barracks.

Maybe more civi shooters would show up if they knew how much fun SR was and that nobody is going to laugh you off the range with equipment that isn't a space gun. In fact, I think someone showing up with a spacegun that doesn't perform well is far more embarrassing.

I think overcoming the fitness curve is probably a problem for some guys who are used to seeing their sight picture from a bench, and not after a rundown or shooting from a position.
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Great post!
 
SPRTN308 said:
100 and 200 yards kneeling is all my practice will consist of at my local range this season. Well, standing at 100 as well obviously. I agree. This is where I lost my points in my first attempt this year, and is where ill focus my practice. Even just focusing on positional shooting at 100 will have a profound impact on the fundamentals. The key is to get off the damn benches when visiting a range, and actually practice shooting and not pulling a trigger...
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Probably the best thing you can do for yourself is try a bunch of different positions, pick the ones that seem to fit you the best and practice them.
You don't even have to use your service rifle. A good .22 will do you fine. Get off the bench. Once your positions are solidified then start shooting from them regularly. Have realistic achievable goals to begin with like just making 10 hits. Don't worry about timings yet. Just make good hits and fire perfect shots. Once you are getting good hits consistantly(meaning every time) then move on to moving into position and firing only perfect shots. Once you are good there then start adding time. Start with more time then allowed and slowly decrease the time when you are making all good shots. Finally when things are going well run yourself under match conditions. Timings,moving into positions,changing mags etc. To be truly good at it it takes lots of time and practice. Skip steps and,as Gunnerlove has said, you are only teaching yourself to miss. And that can be worse than not practicing at all.
 
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