Stag-10 vs Modern Hunter
- Thread starter JesseSVTJaymes
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- Red Deer, Alberta
I agree completely with your evaluation of the MH. I have one of the first 75, proof barrel in .308win. I changed to a 12 “ fortis handguard to prevent it from hitting the gas block. I had the upper enlarged so the cam pin didn’t hit. And I still can’t get it to do a decent 5 shot group. There is always a flyer it seems. The odd group under 1”, but most are 1.3”-1.5” with factory ammo. Even after 800 rounds it still jams, driving a magazine fed round into the barrel extension. I’d guess there is something goofy with geometry, or the side charging handle contributes some sort of weirdness.
And I’ve NEVER seen a good grouping from from a MH with a proof barrel in .308win. I’ve seen good groups from MH with .308 Lilja barrels, but not the proof ones.
I have come to realize my MH will just be a hunting rifle for me now. I have now swapped out all the parts I could for light weight ones. Swapped the Leupold Mark 6 3-18x44 to a Vortex HD LH 3-15x42. It weighs 8lb with optic and will be decent for deer hunting.
I have a stag 10 on order, as funds permit I’ll build it. Hopefully it is the ticket for a accurate semi-auto
I was also one of the guys questioning the accuracy of the Modern Hunter when they came out but at the time it was also hard to find anyone that actually did any real accuracy testing. A buddy of mine bought one of the first batch to come out of the shop and he bought quite a few different types of ammo to try but unfortunately none of it was match level stuff, mostly hunting loads with the best being the Nosler Trophy hunting stuff. It all shot well but nothing spectacular. I had my AR-10 which was a $3000+ build with a 16 inch Rainier Arms ultra match barrel and the two rifles performed about the same but my AR-10 was more reliable, it ate everything and fed from any magazine. I talked to Rick abut it as well as posting comments in the thread buddy started which documented our results. After nothing but negativity and chit talk he got frustrated and deleted all the posts. That rifle is also the third rifle used in Mystic accuracy comparison that shot sub moa for him with the best group being 1/4 inch group at 100 yards.
Most of the other reports of poor accuracy were from guys who were trying to run surplus or soft point ammo or had a crap scope or whatever so I disregarded those.
So, yes the MH never lived up to expectations but I can't for the life of me figure out why they don't shoot as well as they should. I got a good deal on my rifle in 6.5 with the Proof barrel and it is consistent with no flyers but as I've said before I'm only able to get about 1 moa which is good but not what it should be capable of. One of these days I'll put my Nightforce 5.5-22x56, remove the handguard and support it from the barrel nut and shoot a couple groups to rule out that it's the handguard contacting the gas block but other than that, unless the Proof barrels have something wrong with them I'm out of ideas.
I'm still very happy with my purchase and my rifle is very reliable with my handloads but it does struggle with Hornady superformance 129gr factory loads even though I'm using the same projectiles in my handloads. I think the only difference is that I'm loading just a hair shorter than factory and I'm not running my loads as hot as the Superformance load. I just installed an adjustable gas block and got it set up and will print a couple groups with it before removing the handguard to try test if that's part of the problem.
I think the Stag 10 is going to finally deliver the results guys have been looking for at a price that doesn't get the wife mad.
Nothing fancy, just a standard AR-10 with a non restricted classification. It should shoot as well as expected from whatever barrel and ammo is installed.
I won't be selling my MH in order to buy a Stag though, I like accurate rifles but I didn't buy this or my other black rifles to sit at a table shooting at paper all day so hovering around 1 moa is good enough even though I'd like to see better considering how much it cost.
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What weight of projectiles were you using?
I'm using 130gr stuff and my buddy had a MH in 6.5 that got really good results from 140gr stuff.
I prefer to stay away from the heavy projectiles in my semi auto's but you can't argue the results he was getting.
Do you have a chrony? Wondering what velocities you're seeing with your 130gr loads.
I just switched to H4350 and results were good but I seemed to have mild pressure signs before I got to the velocities I was hoping for and I don't think the 20 inch barrel would lose that much compared to my 24 inch bolt action 6.5. These may have a little shorter throat than the Rem factory cut chamber.
Either way, I think I found my load and made a bunch to take out and try at longer distances. Generally hovering right around or slightly under 1 moa at 100 yards, hoping those produce similar or better results at longer distances.
I've been able to get quite consistent groups hovering around 1 moa with 129gr SST's with Varget and with Hybrid 100V but switched to ELD-M 130gr when I switched to H4350.
I'd like to try my 140gr/H4350 bolt gun load in the MH but haven't checked to see if it will chamber cleanly.
I like your posts so don't take this as me trying to piss you off. I'm not. However, I want to bring to light what others are able to get with their 6.5 CM BCL 102 builds. On a side note, I fully expect the Stag with the same barrels etc to also be shooting like these. Any AR308 that's setup with the right barrel, trigger etc should be able to do this.
Now keep in mind, you can in fact get AR10 rifles in 308 to shoot like this as well. However it takes more research and matching barrels/twists/powders/bullets. The 6.5 CM is fairly new, so twist rate and bullets are optimized to work together. It just takes away the variables that seem to cause many 308 shooters issues trying to achieve top accuracy.
Here are a few BCL 102 groups in 6.5 CM.
Dr. Hunter posted this previously. It's only 4 rounds, I prefer to use 5. But it still goes to show you what your expectations should be providing your rifle is built for tactical precision.
Here's another one from a shooter who doesn't specialize in precision shooting and was doing some ammo testing with a 6.5 CM BCL 102.
Last but not least, here is Mystic Precision's 5 round group with a BCL 102 in 6.5 CM. Again, the 6.5 CM seems to take away some of those variables that cause people grief with the 308.
Another group with the same BCL 102 6.5 CM rifle by Mystic Precision.
I like your posts so don't take this as me trying to piss you off. I'm not. However, I want to bring to light what others are able to get with their 6.5 CM BCL 102 builds. On a side note, I fully expect the Stag with the same barrels etc to also be shooting like these. Any AR308 that's setup with the right barrel, trigger etc should be able to do this.
Now keep in mind, you can in fact get AR10 rifles in 308 to shoot like this as well. However it takes more research and matching barrels/twists/powders/bullets. The 6.5 CM is fairly new, so twist rate and bullets are optimized to work together. It just takes away the variables that seem to cause many 308 shooters issues trying to achieve top accuracy.
Here are a few BCL 102 groups in 6.5 CM.
Dr. Hunter posted this previously. It's only 4 rounds, I prefer to use 5. But it still goes to show you what your expectations should be providing your rifle is built for tactical precision.
Here's another one from a shooter who doesn't specialize in precision shooting and was doing some ammo testing with a 6.5 CM BCL 102.
Last but not least, here is Mystic Precision's 5 round group with a BCL 102 in 6.5 CM. Again, the 6.5 CM seems to take away some of those variables that cause people grief with the 308.
Another group with the same BCL 102 6.5 CM rifle by Mystic Precision.
My krieger barrelled LRB M25 (home built) shoots that tight, reliably and repeatably but she is just too damn heavy to hunt with LOL
Good post.
A couple of things I wanted to bring up about shooting AR308 rifles. My thoughts/experiences.
1) I know you mentioned the mil spec trigger and still being able to shoot it accurately before. Plus how semi autos are harder to shoot. I wanted to address this earlier but only so much time. It's true you can. However the main difference you are experiencing with semi autos and bolt actions is actually the lock time. You have to keep the semi auto AR10 on target and have perfect follow through. The lock time on a bolt action, especially one designed for target or tactical target is significantly lower than a semi auto AR308's. Again, follow through will mitigate a lot of this, which is why it's harder to shoot. However a Geiselle trigger for instance cuts the lock time for most AR rifles in half. It's currently the best trigger for target shooting and an AR due to this. It's not about it being lighter. It's about it being quicker so there is less chance of the rifle moving from the time the trigger is pressed to the bullet leaving the barrel.
2) Also the optics. Higher magnification doesn't necessarily equal better groups. Even clearer optics. I know many think that if they put on that NF or high end scope that their groups will shrink. Maybe, but in my experience probably not. buddies and I shooting AR10 rifles have used the lowly Burris fullfield II scopes at 9X for some pretty amazing groups. When shooting at 100 yards/metres 9X will get the job done. In fact more than a few shooters have found their groups are shrunk with less magnification rather than going higher. Also.. again with an AR10 I have actually shot a .5 moa 5 round group with a buddies AR10t (two of my buddies have picked up these rifles after I bought one) using his Sightron which had a screwed up parrallax. It was like looking through a fishbowl at 100 yards. It appeared to be set for around 50 yards. A ring came loose in his scope which he later fixed. But.. I could see the crosshair fine and the lines etc of the target. The target wasn't clear or in focus but.. it didn't need to be. I just needed to be able to keep the crosshair on the same location every time. Which I could. Plus and I can't stress this enough.... sight picture, sight picture sight picture. That part is actually easier with a semi auto as you don't need to break your position for the next shot. This will neutralize parallax issues and keep those groups tight. This is the same with a bolt action as well.
Anyways. I'm really glad the AR308 market has exploded in the last years. There weren't many of us before. Now with non restricted, it's gone from being the niche AR shooters to being popular. Glad to see it!
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I don’t find it any more difficult,shooting an AR 10 or a Bolt.
I’ve shot lots of groups with both , with the AR10 being faster.
The biggest difference I found was the trigger.
I installed a Geiselle National Match and it was by far, the biggest and best improvement.
It’s crisp and it’s fast.
I’m about to try a new barrel, it should shoot sub MOA,easily.
I’ve shot lots of groups with both , with the AR10 being faster.
The biggest difference I found was the trigger.
I installed a Geiselle National Match and it was by far, the biggest and best improvement.
It’s crisp and it’s fast.
I’m about to try a new barrel, it should shoot sub MOA,easily.
Truth be told, good shooting form has the same follow through with a bolt action. It's just the aR10 is less forgiving if you don't.
I learned to shoot groups on semi autos, so I don't find it hard either. But.. I have had a few shots on a bolt that I wasn't all that happy with and they were still good. I know those would have likely opened my AR10 group up. Keep in mind though that I don't currently have any Gieselle triggers currently on my AR10/AR308 rifles so I'm subject to the longer lock time with my rifles. I did however buy a Geiselle for my Stag 10 build.
Yup, I've shot some nice groups with a 3-9x40 Leupold and I've even pulled off a couple sub MOA groups with my Elcan Specter DR at 4x. I do think the clarity and especially the reticle make a big difference. You don't have to run $2000+ optics but quality glass is important. I have a couple Burris scopes that are surprisingly good considering how much they cost.
I've just learned to stay away from Bushnell after a bad experience with an Elite 6500 series and I avoid Vortex because out of the four I've owned three have needed repairs and they were all $800+ optics, I find Vortex has good glass but the rest of them falls apart. I think of Vortex like I think of Dodge trucks, lot's of bells and whistles for a good price, good performance when new but they break down a little too often. I do think their Razor series is better but for that much money I'll buy another Nightforce.
Totally agree, It's really great how the AR-10 market has opened up with a few non restricted options. I owned two restricted AR-10's and eventually sold them when I got tired of them being range princesses. My Modern Hunter was a dream come true owning a rifle that is basically an AR-10 I can shoot in my back yard.
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Truth be told, good shooting form has the same follow through with a bolt action. It's just the aR10 is less forgiving if you don't.
I learned to shoot groups on semi autos, so I don't find it hard either. But.. I have had a few shots on a bolt that I wasn't all that happy with and they were still good. I know those would have likely opened my AR10 group up. Keep in mind though that I don't currently have any Gieselle triggers currently on my AR10/AR308 rifles so I'm subject to the longer lock time with my rifles. I did however buy a Geiselle for my Stag 10 build.
I don't usually have too much trouble shooting groups with a semi either but I do have to concentrate more on doing it right every time.
Like you said, shooting a semi magnifies your mistakes or poor form. If you're a good shooter to begin with you usually won't have too much trouble. The point I was making earlier is that a lot of guys buy these rifles and think that because the rifle should shoot sub MOA that they're going to get those results even though they are fairly new to shooting for accuracy and have never shot a sub MOA group in their life. Then they blame the rifle for the bad groups.
Have you tried an ALG ACT nickel boron trigger yet?
I have a couple of them and for $100ish they are fantastic. Nice single stage trigger that comes with a couple hammer springs so you can tune the pull a little or run a heavier spring if you are getting light strikes.
ALG is a child company of Geissele.
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Don't sell that one!
I have a done up Norc M14 with a JAE stock. Haven't shot it yet. But I'm not expecting groups like those. I'm an AR10 guy but this one was the right price and it called out to me. I suspect I got suckered in because it looked cool. This thread needs more photos!
The might AR10t (Canadian military version). 24" SS ceramic coated triple lapped Lothar Walther barrel with 1:11.25 twist. These things shoot. But they are also fairly rare. The one with the green stock has been brought back to the original black with the correct accuracy speaks adjustable but pad. Other than flash hider they look identical. It also has the correct back up sights now.
BCL 102. Pretty close to stock. Just got it finished up.
Stag 10 parts have been ordered. A few pieces have already arrived (MI MLok 12.5" handguard, brakeout 2.0 flash/brake, Geiselle trigger, ergo grip, black sopmod B5, pws enhanced gen 1 buffer tube...). Waiting for the barrel and the Stag parts.
Bushnell and Vortex are two of the brands I have avoided. I know many like them, but they've never done anything for me.
A couple of the 2K scopes I recently bought for Cadex rifles (one might find it's way on an AR10) are the Delta Stryker 4.5-30x ffp. Very nice scopes. Just waiting for the mounts. I also bought a couple of Burris XTR II scopes for less expensive rifles. They were on sale and they do the job. My goto "cheap" scope is the Burris E1 in 3-9X. I actually really like that one.
I wish I could shoot out my back yard. However, not so lucky. The ranges are the closest if I want to go shooting. So restricted hasn't been an issue for me as shooting on Crown land or private in a suitable area (with permission) is pretty much a full day trip. The area we used to shoot 50 BMG snuck in a no shooting bylaw within another bylaw after it failed when they first tried. But.. that doesn't mean I don't like the idea of non restricted and it's a good excuse to get more AR308 rifles.
Nope haven't tried them. I have heard and know about them. I would want to check the lock time first. I have a couple of Spike Tactical Nickel boron coated with JJP springs in them for my ADCOR rifles. They aren't bad.
That being said.. I have a fair amount of experience with the two stage Geiselle (4.5 pounds) and a C8 IUR rifle. Double taps are touching or the same hole for CQB. Very fast and great triggers.
That doesn't piss me off.
I still have a Vortex Viper PST 4-16x50 on my 7-08 hunting rifle and a Vortex Viper PST 1-4x24 on my Savage A-17. I sold my two 6-24x50 Viper PST and won't be buying any more Vortex products.
I have a Burris E1 2-7 on my Magnum Research 22WMR, great scope for the money.
I picked up a Burris Veracity 4-20x50 which is on my Krieger barreled M-14 (Norc receiver but pretty much everything else has been changed). Reticle is a little thick for precision shooting but it's nice and clear and will make a nice varmint/predator scope.
I also have a Trijicon 5-20x50 on my Rem 700 223. Great scope but the prices have jumped up a lot since I bought mine.
The 22WMR with Burris E1 2-7
Burris Veracity 4-20x50. 12.2 pounds with the scope.
Sightron S-Tac 3-16x42. It's 11.1 pounds without the bipod and 9 pounds just the rifle.
Factory carbon fiber barrel with the Trijicon 5-20x50. Unfortunately this one has a 12 twist barrel so is limited to lighter projectiles and inside 300M. I have played a little with it at 600M but it was not impressive with the light projectiles. I should try some load development with some 50-60gr projectiles and see what it does.
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