So it isn't the stainless that is rusting. Correct?
stainless steel vs blued
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So it isn't the stainless that is rusting. Correct?
Rocket Surgery
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
Hunting on the west coast with a blued/wooden gun is just punishment. I really feel for people in the past that had no other option, as you basically had to oil everything before, and completely disassemble and clean afterwards. You couldn't even leave it for the night if you were camping. It's not that I'm lazy or whiny, but why would I do this to myself if I could own a stainless / synthetic rifle? It's not like you lose accuracy or style, you just pay 5-10% more.
You should have seen my Mosin after some hunting trips. I take that thing over an Enfield simply because it's easier to take off the stock and clean the magazine. One screw on the stock, and everything else takes down by hand. I keep the cleaning rod on the rifle, which is so damn convenient when needed. I may stand alone in adoration of the 1944 carbine for rugged bush hunting, but for a blued rifle in the wet, I'd probably take it over many modern offerings, unless I could sell them to buy a mosin and pocket the change! No really I'd do that haha
Pay the extra, get a Savage or Sako, and never look back. If you like long action bolts, Tikkas are supposedly decent as well.
You should have seen my Mosin after some hunting trips. I take that thing over an Enfield simply because it's easier to take off the stock and clean the magazine. One screw on the stock, and everything else takes down by hand. I keep the cleaning rod on the rifle, which is so damn convenient when needed. I may stand alone in adoration of the 1944 carbine for rugged bush hunting, but for a blued rifle in the wet, I'd probably take it over many modern offerings, unless I could sell them to buy a mosin and pocket the change! No really I'd do that haha
Pay the extra, get a Savage or Sako, and never look back. If you like long action bolts, Tikkas are supposedly decent as well.
Rocket Surgery
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
That was back in the day, clinging to that philosophy is just self punishment. You'll be oiling and cleaning while I'm getting ready for bed after a long day of hunting.
Just because it's older, doesn't mean it's wiser. Technology improves your life. For example, 100 years ago there was a 44% chance you were somehow involved in farming. Today that is about 2-3%, allowing more people to make stuff. 125 years ago, your gun used black powder, which had various limitations over smokeless. Do we think of those days as better? Heck no, it's obvious that hunting with a black powder 30-30 isn't as good as using smokeless. It's the same thing with Stainless vs Blued, now we don't have to clean our rifles right after they get rained on. You can actually go a whole week without doing more than wiping off some raindrops. Of course this doesn't apply if you live in a drier part of the country, but here on the coast, a dry day is the exception and not the rule around Oct/Nov/Dec.
bearkilr
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
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There will come a day in the very near future when you'll regret believing this is a positive aspect of our current lifestyle.
Rocket Surgery
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
There will come a day in the very near future when you'll regret believing this is a positive aspect of our current lifestyle.
So basically you'd have us play catch up Greece to see who can drive their economies back to agricultural based economies? Some of you might think technology is a lie sent by liberals to kill us, but I like the fact that I can step on rusty nails and not die of the lockjaw.
You do realize the moment we stop being such a badass country is the same time we get bullied out of our natural resources. Think what was happening to Cuba before the revolution in the 1950's. I'm trying not to use big words here, but I'll argue all day with anyone who wants to ban electricity and burn books.
bearkilr
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
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It has nothing to do with an agricultural based economy, more about survival and avoidance of total anarchy and public mayhem. There is little more frightening than a starving mob of citizens.
Your technology advances still can't make food, that's where the farmer comes into play. The average age of a farmer is now over 50 in Canada, that's a scary thought. Would you rather have it where large corporations and gov't control farming? It's heading that way and it won't work, just ask the Russians.
Everyone wants cheap food and plenty of $$ left over for entertainment. They'll dish out hundreds to take the family to a sporting event but ##### when milk goes up 25c/liter.
Oh well, it worked for the Romans............for a while.
But this discussion would have to be continued in "off topics", I suppose.
Back on topic, stainless steel rules, but it's not as pretty. In regard to oiling, I actually enjoy dismantling my guns and cleaning, it's a pleasure, not a pain.
To try and answer your question Chuck Nelson .. in layman terms. I am not a metallurgist, but work in the QA/QC industry for pressure pressure equipment fabrication/repair/inspections.
Stainless steel is protected from corrosion (from water and air) by a thin impervious invisible surface layer, called a passive layer (which is a chromium oxide). It is the iron in carbon that breaks down this passive layer and creates the rust or aweful discoloring as some call it. It can also cause crevices in the stainless if the particles are large enough. This discoloring can be removed by what is called "pickling" or "passivation". One can buy pickling paste which primarily consist of nitric and hdyroflouric acid. Passivation is primarily nitric acid. The paste is applied to surface, let sit for short period of time, and the rinsed off with water. In the fabrication world, stainless equipment is often pickled or passivated right after manufacturing to ensure contaminents are removed and to restore/ensure the passive layer is what is should be.
In clean enviroments the passive layer will repair/restore itself, as a result of reacting with the oxygen in the air or water (aqueous solutions), so this is why stainless steel will not "rust/discolor" in clean evironments/conditions.
Stainless is also very subseptible to damage from chlorides (such as salts).
Surface finish also contributes to the "strength" (I use the term loosely) of the passive layer. The higher the finish the more resistance it is. Rough sufaces, nicks and scratches are a detriment to surfaces.
Many gun manufactures recommend that after cleaning your gun you wipe a LIGHT film of oil over the barrel etc .. on CARBON STEEL BARRELs. This oil acts as protective layer, and prevents the moisture (oxygen and water) from reacting with the surface (and creating rust). In this way, carbon steel is the opposite of stainless ... oxygen and water help protect one and is a detriment to the other. Regardless of the material of you gun, carbon vs SS, they both require care and attention.
On a side note, I mentioned that SS (stainless steel) in generally better at lower temperatures. This is a vague statement and needs to be treated as such. Alot of cryogenic vessels/piping are made from stainless steel. For example: In the pressure equipment world, the word impacts (toughness) comes up alot. Mild steel is generally in the range -20 to -50C, depending on grade, range for good impacts, below this one can run into problems. The common grades of stainless - like 316/304 generally impact down the -280 C temp range without issue. When you go below those temps, the most serious problem is cracking ... and I mean bad cracking .. things literally fall apart... when under pressure or load.
Hope this helps you out
Stainless steel is protected from corrosion (from water and air) by a thin impervious invisible surface layer, called a passive layer (which is a chromium oxide). It is the iron in carbon that breaks down this passive layer and creates the rust or aweful discoloring as some call it. It can also cause crevices in the stainless if the particles are large enough. This discoloring can be removed by what is called "pickling" or "passivation". One can buy pickling paste which primarily consist of nitric and hdyroflouric acid. Passivation is primarily nitric acid. The paste is applied to surface, let sit for short period of time, and the rinsed off with water. In the fabrication world, stainless equipment is often pickled or passivated right after manufacturing to ensure contaminents are removed and to restore/ensure the passive layer is what is should be.
In clean enviroments the passive layer will repair/restore itself, as a result of reacting with the oxygen in the air or water (aqueous solutions), so this is why stainless steel will not "rust/discolor" in clean evironments/conditions.
Stainless is also very subseptible to damage from chlorides (such as salts).
Surface finish also contributes to the "strength" (I use the term loosely) of the passive layer. The higher the finish the more resistance it is. Rough sufaces, nicks and scratches are a detriment to surfaces.
Many gun manufactures recommend that after cleaning your gun you wipe a LIGHT film of oil over the barrel etc .. on CARBON STEEL BARRELs. This oil acts as protective layer, and prevents the moisture (oxygen and water) from reacting with the surface (and creating rust). In this way, carbon steel is the opposite of stainless ... oxygen and water help protect one and is a detriment to the other. Regardless of the material of you gun, carbon vs SS, they both require care and attention.
On a side note, I mentioned that SS (stainless steel) in generally better at lower temperatures. This is a vague statement and needs to be treated as such. Alot of cryogenic vessels/piping are made from stainless steel. For example: In the pressure equipment world, the word impacts (toughness) comes up alot. Mild steel is generally in the range -20 to -50C, depending on grade, range for good impacts, below this one can run into problems. The common grades of stainless - like 316/304 generally impact down the -280 C temp range without issue. When you go below those temps, the most serious problem is cracking ... and I mean bad cracking .. things literally fall apart... when under pressure or load.
Hope this helps you out
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The choice is realy about what floats your boat. If you like the looks of walnut and blued steel, and you like messing with guns, you will hunt with it, and look after it accordingly. That means waxing the stock, or sealing it with some spar varnish, and wiping it dry before tucking in for the night. It also means running a oily patch down the bore, wiping the outside of the barrel and action off with an oily rag, and perhaps stripping it and oiling the trigger, sear, bolt race, before light out.
Neglecting all or some of the above with a synthetic/stainless rifle will result in regrets, at some point in time. If you would rather be sipping whiskys or playing video games, well, so be it.
Time tending to your tools is part of the experience, to my way of thinking.
Neglecting all or some of the above with a synthetic/stainless rifle will result in regrets, at some point in time. If you would rather be sipping whiskys or playing video games, well, so be it.
Time tending to your tools is part of the experience, to my way of thinking.
I'd prefer the stainless laminate over a piece of plastic for furniture on a rifle any day. I am curious though, when everyone is talking about waxing a wood stock and using grease. Pardon the newb like question, but does this require the removal of your barrel and action from the stock, applying a thin film of grease to the internals and underside and applying some sort of wax to the stock? And if so, what type of grease and wax should a guy be using??
I meant applying car wax to the barreled action, not the stock. Others have mentioned sealing the stock with grease.
I use a carnauba wax for the barrel/action and Boeshield T-9 over that. Matte and parkerized finishes get lots of Boeshield to soak it in. If there are raw areas on the stock I generally apply Tru-Oil in two or three coats.
I used to have a problem with rust, even on stainless guns. This has remedied the problem.
Thats why its called stain-less .. not stain-proof steel. That said I notice massive difference in corrosion protection when it comes to stainless vs galvanized steels. All it takes is a week for galvanized steel to start rusting vs years for the stainless bolts/screws on my boat.
Ps: never install galvanized steel parts on a boat used on sal####er unless you like rust.
Ps: never install galvanized steel parts on a boat used on sal####er unless you like rust.
Rocket Surgery
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
Rocket Surgery
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
heh
Good advice ....
galvanizied coatings have very rough surfaces and primarily contain zinc, .... the same material used for some boat prop anodes.
The 316 and 316L grades of stainless are considered marine grades ... other grades are prone to crevice corrosion and pitting, unless you start getting into the duplex or super grades (which are big big $$$$).
explorin2
On a side note, I mentioned that SS (stainless steel) in generally better at lower temperatures. This is a vague statement and needs to be treated as such. Alot of cryogenic vessels/piping are made from stainless steel. For example: In the pressure equipment world, the word impacts (toughness) comes up alot. Mild steel is generally in the range -20 to -50C, depending on grade, range for good impacts, below this one can run into problems. The common grades of stainless - like 316/304 generally impact down the -280 C temp range without issue. When you go below those temps, the most serious problem is cracking ... and I mean bad cracking .. things literally fall apart... when under pressure or load.
Hope this helps you out[/QUOTE]
Stainless gun barell steel is 416S for Sulfur. The sulfur is added to make it chip and is therefore more machineable. The SS you are talking about, I believe has no sulfer added and is tougher at lower temps and stains less readily than 416S. It would also chew up a barell makers equipment faster than he could scream "there's no money in this business!" I wonder what type of SS is used on the actions of the various makers. Ruger claims their SS bolts are tougher than non SS, so must be non Sulfur steel?
On a side note, I mentioned that SS (stainless steel) in generally better at lower temperatures. This is a vague statement and needs to be treated as such. Alot of cryogenic vessels/piping are made from stainless steel. For example: In the pressure equipment world, the word impacts (toughness) comes up alot. Mild steel is generally in the range -20 to -50C, depending on grade, range for good impacts, below this one can run into problems. The common grades of stainless - like 316/304 generally impact down the -280 C temp range without issue. When you go below those temps, the most serious problem is cracking ... and I mean bad cracking .. things literally fall apart... when under pressure or load.
Hope this helps you out[/QUOTE]
Stainless gun barell steel is 416S for Sulfur. The sulfur is added to make it chip and is therefore more machineable. The SS you are talking about, I believe has no sulfer added and is tougher at lower temps and stains less readily than 416S. It would also chew up a barell makers equipment faster than he could scream "there's no money in this business!" I wonder what type of SS is used on the actions of the various makers. Ruger claims their SS bolts are tougher than non SS, so must be non Sulfur steel?
well if you hunt on the westcoast. blued rifles are just a pain in the ass. often times we get about in skiffs on the saltchuck and a bit of spray and salt air plus rain and mud like we get around here will drive you around the bend chasing rust on a blued rifle if you are hunting multiple days.
the best hunting is when it's pissing rain so stainless is the way to go around here. but if blued is all you got don't let that stop you. you'll just have more work, guns are tools for putting projectiles in things if it wears out buy a new one. i don't think it's healthy to get all sentimental and obsess over material objects like rifles.
the best hunting is when it's pissing rain so stainless is the way to go around here. but if blued is all you got don't let that stop you. you'll just have more work, guns are tools for putting projectiles in things if it wears out buy a new one. i don't think it's healthy to get all sentimental and obsess over material objects like rifles.
Stainless gun barell steel is 416S for Sulfur. The sulfur is added to make it chip and is therefore more machineable. The SS you are talking about, I believe has no sulfer added and is tougher at lower temps and stains less readily than 416S. It would also chew up a barell makers equipment faster than he could scream "there's no money in this business!" I wonder what type of SS is used on the actions of the various makers. Ruger claims their SS bolts are tougher than non SS, so must be non Sulfur steel?[/QUOTE]
On the 416SS, makes sense... and thanks for the info, greatly appreciated. I've been around and shot firearms since I was quite young but have only recently taken a real interest, and just purchased my first one.
I am used to working with weldable grades, the austenitic and duplex grades, and got a bit tunnel visioned on them. Didn't even think to consider the martensitic grades, as is 416SS, which after some digging I can now see would be the ideal due to their machinability and hardenability through heat treatments.
AND IT MOST LIKEY HAS VERY LOW IMPACT TEMERATURE .. I would guess nothing more than -20. I'm glad you point this out.
On the Ruger topic, I'm thinking by toughness you mean hardness / wear resistance? In my area of work toughness is generally used to describe a materials ability to impact.
I can't even begin to guess what Ruger uses for material. My uneducated responce would be a martensitic grade SS with sulphur, and the secret to their "claim" maybe in the heat treatment. Such as quench and temper or nitriting, To remove the sulphur could have an impact on cost in achieving high tolerances.
Regarding SS vs non SS for "toughness as you put it" is getting pretty deep into heat treatments and I have no real knowledge of the two. I'm thinking it would be on the one who wants to spend the most though... in this day and age they can do some amazing things.
Again thanks for your comment .... I learned something today ... and pulled my head out of my ass.
On the 416SS, makes sense... and thanks for the info, greatly appreciated. I've been around and shot firearms since I was quite young but have only recently taken a real interest, and just purchased my first one.
I am used to working with weldable grades, the austenitic and duplex grades, and got a bit tunnel visioned on them. Didn't even think to consider the martensitic grades, as is 416SS, which after some digging I can now see would be the ideal due to their machinability and hardenability through heat treatments.
AND IT MOST LIKEY HAS VERY LOW IMPACT TEMERATURE .. I would guess nothing more than -20. I'm glad you point this out.
On the Ruger topic, I'm thinking by toughness you mean hardness / wear resistance? In my area of work toughness is generally used to describe a materials ability to impact.
I can't even begin to guess what Ruger uses for material. My uneducated responce would be a martensitic grade SS with sulphur, and the secret to their "claim" maybe in the heat treatment. Such as quench and temper or nitriting, To remove the sulphur could have an impact on cost in achieving high tolerances.
Regarding SS vs non SS for "toughness as you put it" is getting pretty deep into heat treatments and I have no real knowledge of the two. I'm thinking it would be on the one who wants to spend the most though... in this day and age they can do some amazing things.
Again thanks for your comment .... I learned something today ... and pulled my head out of my ass.[/QUOTE]
