I am not talking about muzzle flash. Im not an idiot. We are Talking about MFS which has steel jacketed bullets plated with copper. If the copper coating isnt thick enough and as the bullet is travelling down the barrel it gets down to the steel it could cause sparks in theory. Try reading the whole thread before you comment man. And yes MFS is reasonably accurate. Just for background. I have spent many years as a professional mechanic, professional carpenter/contractor and am a college grad which has taken college level metallurgy, machine shop, manufacturing, exc.
Steel Cased Ammo
- Thread starter John in B.C.
- Start date
I am not talking about muzzle flash. Im not an idiot. We are Talking about MFS which has steel jacketed bullets plated with copper. If the copper coating isnt thick enough and as the bullet is travelling down the barrel it gets down to the steel it could cause sparks in theory. Try reading the whole thread before you comment man. And yes MFS is reasonably accurate. Just for background. I have spent many years as a professional mechanic, professional carpenter/contractor and am a college grad which has taken college level metallurgy, machine shop, manufacturing, exc.
- Location
- Prince George B.C.
I not only read the whole thread - I started it.
Look... I'm sorry you don't know what you are talking about - that's not my fault.
And I'm not talking about muzzle flash either - I'm talking about sparks which are produced by any and all firearms due to burning powder exiting the barrel. I have fired everything from BP rifles and revolvers to full auto MG's, rifles, SMG's, hunting rifles, handguns ,shotguns...and even grenade launchers and guess what?????...they all produce sparks - no matter what the case or the bullet is made of.
So, like I said, you don't know what you are talking about - but, hey, thanks for coming out
Cheers,
John
Look... I'm sorry you don't know what you are talking about - that's not my fault.
And I'm not talking about muzzle flash either - I'm talking about sparks which are produced by any and all firearms due to burning powder exiting the barrel. I have fired everything from BP rifles and revolvers to full auto MG's, rifles, SMG's, hunting rifles, handguns ,shotguns...and even grenade launchers and guess what?????...they all produce sparks - no matter what the case or the bullet is made of.
So, like I said, you don't know what you are talking about - but, hey, thanks for coming out
Cheers,
John
I not only read the whole thread - I started it.
Look... I'm sorry you don't know what you are talking about - that's not my fault.
And I'm not talking about muzzle flash either - I'm talking about sparks which are produced by any and all firearms due to burning powder exiting the barrel. I have fired everything from BP rifles and revolvers to full auto MG's, rifles, SMG's, hunting rifles, handguns ,shotguns...and even grenade launchers and guess what?????...they all produce sparks - no matter what the case or the bullet is made of.
So, like I said, you don't know what you are talking about - but, hey, thanks for coming out
Cheers,
John
Man, MFS sparks far more then any normal ammo like AE, Win, Fed, Blazer. What your talking about is muzzle flash from unburnt powder. What MFS does is different. I dont know for sure if its the powder or the metal but, I dont want to take the chance. Try shooting it at an indoor range with some AE for instance and you'll see what Im talking about. And I have shot most of those and own most of those too. As well as reloaded for many years. And I'm sorry I didnt realize you were the op. I was trying to help thats all. You asked for peoples opinion. I gave you mine. If you dont like my opinion then form your own or dont ask. Now, to tell me I dont know what Im talking about thats just rude.
- Location
- Prince George B.C.
Okay, fair enough
Sorry I got snarky, must be the Mojito talking.
Cheers,
John
Sorry I got snarky, must be the Mojito talking.
Cheers,
John
Okay, fair enough
Sorry I got snarky, must be the Mojito talking.
Cheers,
John
Im sorry as well if I got too hot on the topic. I do that sometimes
I just tried the MFS cuz its cheap too and had concerns. Just thought Id let you know. Good shooting my friend.If your asking will it hurt your gun? Then, No.
If your asking if you could have FTE's from time to time in some rifles, then yes... However, typically you can use an extra power extractor with an O-Ring around it to take care of that issue.
Actually, the extractor is a hardened metal... So its not harder on the extractor... The steel is soft compared to the extractor.
As an engineer who works for a major firearms manufacturer, I'm going to go ahead and say that you probably didn't take any metallurgy classes.
http://www.auto-ware.com/techref/meltpoint.htm
Think about what you are claiming is happening here: The hardest, highest melting point material in the round (which is coated in a softer, lower melting point material, and which has a melting point somewhere around four times higher than lead) is throwing off molten chips after possibly rubbing against a *non-abrasive* mirror smooth surface.
I have put roughly 2500 steel cased rounds through my AR without any failures to eject, and my extractor is in great shape. No complaints from my HK45 or M&P either.
garrattrich
Member
- Location
- Rural Saskatchewan
I've run MFS 223 in my mini-14. No issues. Functions flawlessly, resonably accurate (who can tell with a mini anyways )
I chrono'd it and was within 10-20 fps of the AE tactical 223, just about 3000 fps for the 55 grain. Another advantage for AR guys would be that the MFS 223 (at least what I get at prairie gun traders) is loaded with hollow points. A big plus if your range does not allow FMJ, as some do not.
Hard on the bore, producing sparks? Laughable.
A) totally ridiculous, off-base claim. Incomplete burn of powder causes this not the bullet. If the bullet did cause it you would not see it, the sparks would be moving at bullet velocity and burn out in the air before you have time to perceive it.
B) If steel in the bullet jacket was contacting the bore and causing enough friction to produce said sparks the velocity would not compare. Sure, theoretically they could add more powder to compensate but this is budget ammo lol. They aren't going to dump a tenth of a grain more than they have to in there. It's all in the numbers.
)I chrono'd it and was within 10-20 fps of the AE tactical 223, just about 3000 fps for the 55 grain. Another advantage for AR guys would be that the MFS 223 (at least what I get at prairie gun traders) is loaded with hollow points. A big plus if your range does not allow FMJ, as some do not.
Hard on the bore, producing sparks? Laughable.
A) totally ridiculous, off-base claim. Incomplete burn of powder causes this not the bullet. If the bullet did cause it you would not see it, the sparks would be moving at bullet velocity and burn out in the air before you have time to perceive it.
B) If steel in the bullet jacket was contacting the bore and causing enough friction to produce said sparks the velocity would not compare. Sure, theoretically they could add more powder to compensate but this is budget ammo lol. They aren't going to dump a tenth of a grain more than they have to in there. It's all in the numbers.
Obviously a controversial subject. I think steel cased ammo can work really well if/when designed for a particular countries' weapons or weapons systems.
to quote a recent article: "The coefficients of friction (steel on steel vs. steel on brass) aren't greatly different. Brass has less friction, but the brass expands more, and friction is dependent on pressure. There are also other variables at work such as chamber size, case wall thickness and operating pressure...." (Patrick Sweeney, Guns & Ammo, Aug 2011).
I'm gonna have to sit on the fence on this one, except to say that some makers do not recommend steel cased ammo for use in their firearms. Doing so will void the warranty/service. It'd be nice if they told us why, but they must have solid technical reasons....
to quote a recent article: "The coefficients of friction (steel on steel vs. steel on brass) aren't greatly different. Brass has less friction, but the brass expands more, and friction is dependent on pressure. There are also other variables at work such as chamber size, case wall thickness and operating pressure...." (Patrick Sweeney, Guns & Ammo, Aug 2011).
I'm gonna have to sit on the fence on this one, except to say that some makers do not recommend steel cased ammo for use in their firearms. Doing so will void the warranty/service. It'd be nice if they told us why, but they must have solid technical reasons....
I was speaking about extractor and chamber wear from the steel cases when I said its metallurgy 101. And yes I did take it. In college it was part of a manufacturing course I took. It was quite a while ago now though. I was simply stating that abrasion by a harder material ie. steel will cause more wear then from a softer one ie brass and or copper. And the rifling in a firearm is far from mirror smooth. There is distinct machining marks caused when the tooling is pulled through to cut the rifling. And as for the MFS, as I said in an earlier post, I am not sure what causes it but MFS throws some crazy sparks out of the barrel. Like no other ammo I have tried. I simply speculated it was caused by the steel jacket. Either way, that cheap russian ammo doesnt go in my high end firearms. Only my SKS and the like.
You are correct that harder materials will potentially cause more surface abrasion than softer ones, but is surface erosion really an issue with extractor failure? The broken extractors I have seen have all failed from fatigue damage (micro fractures from thousands of bending and unbending cycles that eventually cause a catastrophic crack to form). Have you seen an extractor that stopped functioning because it had worn away? Besides, how much does an extractor cost? On my AR, it's about the same amount as I save every 100 rounds by buying steel-cased .223.
As far as chamber wear, I guess it's hypothetically possible to erode the chamber to the point where it affects the safe function of the firearm after a few hundred thousand firing cycles, but if your barrel rifling is going to be long gone before then. How many rounds do you think you'll shoot out of your AR?
If there are tool marks in your barrel deep enough to remove chunks of bullet material (that later are somehow ejected with the bullet, instead of being embedded in the surface irregularities of your barrel), then your rifle was very, very badly manufactured.
A gun is a tool...do you buy a good quality, well-forged hammer and then worry about damaging it by hitting the wrong kind of nail? Do you buy a great pair of boots and then avoid rough hikes because it's going to wear down the sole faster? No...the reason why it's worth buying nice tools and gear is because then you don't have to obsess over whether they are going to let you down. You can feel free to enjoy and use them as you see fit, because that's what you should do with your functional possessions.
Cheaper ammo = more rounds downrange = more fun for the money you spent on your rifle.
Finally a metallurgist who makes a statement that should put to rest the whole argument of breaking in a barrel. No more need to smooth the tool marks in those high end barrels guys, the rifle was just very badly manufactured, spend 10k instead of 5k and buy a mirror smooth bore rifle, that apparently are easy to come by!
5 rounds of thinly copper coated steel bullets can destroy the accuracy of a highly accurate rifle, steel cased or not, e casing has nothing to do with the bullet coating thickness, two different subjects altogether, the correlation is there is a much higher probability of finding very thinly coated bullets in steel cased ammo than brass cased as it's typically poor quality ammo.
Same reason you never shoot a bb in a pellet rifle if your concerned about accuracy, kind of a no brainer for non metallurgists.
Perhaps not so much technical reasons as to warranty reasons.
If you fired ammunition through a firearm and had a problems that damaged the firearm, US ammunition producers tended to be able to pay due to responsibility or to lawsuit. That meant the firearm was repaired when the ammunition was at fault.
It used to be impossible to get Russian ammunition producers to pay out for damage to a firearm caused by ammo problems. Hence, US firearms manufacturers warned off Russian ammo, usually as a warranty condition. Kind of reminds one of car companies that would void the waranty if handled by a non-dealer.
If you fired ammunition through a firearm and had a problems that damaged the firearm, US ammunition producers tended to be able to pay due to responsibility or to lawsuit. That meant the firearm was repaired when the ammunition was at fault.
It used to be impossible to get Russian ammunition producers to pay out for damage to a firearm caused by ammo problems. Hence, US firearms manufacturers warned off Russian ammo, usually as a warranty condition. Kind of reminds one of car companies that would void the waranty if handled by a non-dealer.
Finally a metallurgist who makes a statement that should put to rest the whole argument of breaking in a barrel. No more need to smooth the tool marks in those high end barrels guys, the rifle was just very badly manufactured, spend 10k instead of 5k and buy a mirror smooth bore rifle, that apparently are easy to come by!
This is the black rifle forum. We are not talking about 5-10k rifles that need a break-in. I made no claims about minute barrel imperfections affecting accuracy...there's a pretty big difference between that, and gouges so big they tear off hunks of bullet.
Aspect, for me anyways theres just too many reasons not to shoot it in my high end firearms. Between certain companies cancelling warrenty if you shoot it, too possible higher bore, chamber, and extractor wear, too possible bad loads not being warrentied due to most of it being made in other countries, too not being able to reload the cases, too having to clean even after 50 rounds because of corrosive primers on some steel cased, exc. We can debate it all day but, I just dont think its worth the savings. Especially when I can almost always reload for cheaper. And I shoot the hell out of my guns but, I also take very good care of them. I clean and oil them regularily and try to avoid anything that will wear them prematurely. I just cant afford to buy new ones all the time. Especially $2500AR's. Wish I could though. Stupid lottery. lol
cptseawolf
CGN Regular
- Location
- Saskatchewan
This thread has got ridiculous.
We get it man - you dont like steel cased ammo. you have mentioned it 9000x and your reasons arent really great, but they are yours. To each their own.
But now this is 4 pages of your opinions in someone elses thread.
These threads are the reason that we will get this same question when some new person reads this thread 2 months from now and asks the Q again for clarification. Or worse doesnt post for clarification and tells people at his range that steel cased ammo is bad, and spreads your unfounded personal opinion as fact.
We get it man - you dont like steel cased ammo. you have mentioned it 9000x and your reasons arent really great, but they are yours. To each their own.
But now this is 4 pages of your opinions in someone elses thread.
These threads are the reason that we will get this same question when some new person reads this thread 2 months from now and asks the Q again for clarification. Or worse doesnt post for clarification and tells people at his range that steel cased ammo is bad, and spreads your unfounded personal opinion as fact.
I think some of you are missing Tacheads point. Correct me if I'm wrong but the issue he is bringing up is the material that makes up the bullet itself, not the case. Is it a "steel" bullet that is copper plated and if so, how thick is that copper plating and are you basically getting a steel bullet running through your barrel.
