Probably not...
Steel shot in a Damascus cartridge gun
- Thread starter Rebelson
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In my experience there are extremely few legitimate gunsmiths who have been trained in the ins and outs of laminated barrels. The few legitimate gunsmiths that I have met, have had virtually zero experience with laminated barrels and are of the opinion that antique shotgun barrels are an accident waiting to happen. That is not to be taken as saying that I agree with proof testing using original proof loads. I have come to think that they unnecessarily strain original barrels and actions
cheers mooncoon
What i mean is..these smiths specialized in antique sxs Damascus/twist/laminated barrels. Yrs of exp
Handled hundreds...bottom line is...every gun is created individually and not every set if barrels are made to " spec " one may be made weaker/stronger than the next, thats why there are tests...but not what poster
Would consider testing ( proofing his for steel) only proves his is gd.. To me..if used as intended and in gd order...gun likely last another 100 yrs... No need to re proof unless it went back for nitro proofing...which some Damascus guns did and passed.
Thing is - Any Damascus gun is likely over 100 years old, and has a long, likely unknown history. What has been shot in the gun - eg modern nitro loads? How many rounds? Have the barrels been honed, chamber lengthened? Whatever the gun was proofed for when manufactured would not be my baseline for shooting today. Say it was proofed for 3 dram nitro loads - I would run 2 3/4 dram loads, thus giving a margin of safety. If one wanted to proof, it would be one round at 3 drams, gun fired remotely and inspected after.
It seems simple but it’s not. And proof is probably the single most misunderstood aspect of shotguns. Virtually all of the civilized world has proof laws wherein a firearm can not legally be sold if it is out of proof - except USA and Canada. Our enlightened North American countries place the responsibility of proofing new firearms on the manufacturers, there is no government standard or oversight. Each manufacturer sets their own procedure and standard, there is no recognized standard. What could possibly go wrong? Of course the manufacturer is legally responsible for defective products, good luck bucking that system. The North American system works great to aid in the rapid scaling up to war time production and generally sporting firearms are overbuilt by manufacturers but there are many thousands of custom, modified and repaired firearms in circulation that the only ‘proof’ involved is faith in the mechanic or the fact that the seller still has all his body parts. Used firearms in NA are not subject to any proof ( there is no such thing available to us) and therefore can be a gamble. Gunsmiths and others with sufficient knowledge, the specialized tools and the experience can judge most firearms and give an opinion as to whether it’s safe to use. This is a learned opinion, not a proven fact. They can not PROVE (proof) this and will rightfully not put themselves in legal jeopardy.
Setting up and operating a proof house is a complicated and expensive undertaking. There is much more to proofing a shotgun than just firing a couple of overloads and passing the gun if it stays together. To start with, the gun is normally thoroughly inspected and specially prepared by a gunsmith, jointed so tightly that it can scarcely be opened and closed. Forend complete and butt stock are removed to prevent breakage, the barrelled action is clamped into a special cradle. Many many measurements of bore diameters and wall thicknesses are taken, all the way down the barrel and chamber, ribs and lumps ( the part that actually hinges into and locks into the action) and action inspected for flaws, bores checked for pitting, rivelling, scoring and other flaws. Then the gun is fired with special precise overloads. Then all the inspections and measurements are repeated. If there is no measurable change it still hasn’t passed! They go through the complete measure, inspect, fire remeasure, reinspected a SECOND TIME! Only then will a gun be passed and marked as such. And a busy proof house could be doing hundreds of these each day. Proof your own? Don’t make me laugh.
In Britain and Europe guns that fail at any point along the way may not be legally sold private or retail except as parts. If the gun is potentially valuable it may be repaired and resubmitted. Many out of proof guns are exported to countries with no proof laws ( guess where?).
In Canada we must send a gun to Britain or Europe to have a gun proofed. I have done this twice for a potentially valuable gun, the last time about 10 years ago and with gunsmith fees for prepping and freeing after proof, shipping, insurance, proof fees, etc, my total expense was around $1500.
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Yes...by the OP lack of response to any further comments...id say either his gun failed. Or didnt bother with the " test ". Ive a great respect for vintage guns..they are from an era we will never see again,
Ill fire mine with appropriate ammo and maintain them as they were meant to be, likely last another 100 yrs...proving 1 guns ability to take ( steel or modern pressures ) proves 1 gun survived...but at what cost...
How much stress did it endure and is their any unseen damages...to me and the general consensus
On this forum...i think we can agree that there is no merit nor any logic to prove 1 gun, to blanket the premis that steel shot and damascus barrels are safe.
Ill fire mine with appropriate ammo and maintain them as they were meant to be, likely last another 100 yrs...proving 1 guns ability to take ( steel or modern pressures ) proves 1 gun survived...but at what cost...
How much stress did it endure and is their any unseen damages...to me and the general consensus
On this forum...i think we can agree that there is no merit nor any logic to prove 1 gun, to blanket the premis that steel shot and damascus barrels are safe.
gunsaholic
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Winnipeg, Manitoba
Not sure if he tested or not but I think it says in one of his earlier posts that he was leaving for a hunting trip.
Just checked back in here after going to 3 other much more welcoming sites for advice, 20 rounds down range of steel shot sqaure loads with trimmed 20 gauge wads wrapped in thin copper sheet. No visible damage, the gun survived. And I learned exactly where NOT to ask questions about an experimental idea. I'm not going g to run them steady as they don't have the power to ethically take game. This site was always a wealth over information and welcoming, apparently not anymore
Man just read the comments, damn you old boys got real fired up. I'm more than alive and proved my point with the help of others with creative minds that have not long since been closed off and can talk to a guy without punching down and throwing insults at the thought of someone asking a question they dont agree with. Hey HUNTERROD I don't think a guy running synthetic powder saying you can't measure real BP by weight and saying youve never seen it at a BP competition can talk to much about being an "expert", makes a guy wonder if you even shoot BP in competition. This thread is long dead take it too my new one on BP cleaners if you want to talk s#it
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Licensed to kill
CGN Regular
- Location
- Peace Country Alberta
You weren't looking for advice you were looking for validation and when those in the know would not provide it, you searched until you found someone that did. There was another guy that did something similar recently named Stockton Rush, ever heard of him??
The aforementioned Stockton Rush thought he was smarter than everyone else also, built a def dive sub from carbon fibre when all the deep dive and carbon fibre experts told him it won't work. Made 13 successful dives to the Titanic with "no visible damage". Ask him how dive 14 went.......you can't because it imploded and turned him and his passengers into Hunan toothpaste. Pressure cycles stressed the hull causing cracks that were not seen by the naked eye but were there non the less and 5 People lost their lives because of his arrogance because he though he knew more than all those with vastly more experience than him. Much smaller scale but I see a LOT of similarities in his attitude and yours.
In other word you found another source of "yes" men that will not challenge those ideas, whether it is out of ignorang=ce on their part of they just want you to like them, hard to say.
Since shooting steel shot has only ONE practical purpose, and that is hunting waterfowl, and you admit that your loads were not sufficient for such a task, your "experiment" was pointless and "proved" nothing of value.
That "wealth of information" did not just evaporate on this thread. You were given solid advice and things to consider from people that have been using, collecting and researching "Damascus" barrelled guns for longer than you have been breathing. That wealth of knowledge is still here and was applied to this thread, you just didn't like what the knowledgeable had to say.....not unlike Stockton Rush. The problem is twofold as I see it. First, that gun. that went through those pointless pressure cycles MAY now be compromised and fail under proper loads down the road injuring someone. Might be next year 10 years or 20 years fro. now...or maybe never. Unfortunately, that is just a maybe. Second (and this is more frightening) is you will now go all over the net telling everyone how smart you are and that you proved t all the naysayers that steel shot can be shot through Damascus barrels (just like Stockton Rush told the world how he broke all the rules and proved the "experts" wrong) and see other neophyte kid, will go out and hunt ducks with his family heirloom Damascus shogun and lose a hand because he read on the net that it is safe to do so. I am sure you are a good kid with no ill intentions but what you are spreading now on the net is dangerous. Someday you will grow up and look back and shake your head at your antics/posts. We all thought we knew more than we did in our 20's and did stupid stuff, in fact, I see some of my attitude when I was in my 20's in some of your posts and I suspect I am not the only one. For the record, I THINK I am speaking for all those that held a less than positive view of you idea (I am speaking for me for sure) that NONE of those posts were intended to be malicious. It was people with the "wealth of information" that you alluded to trying to actually HELP and give you things to think about that you clearly had not and with your extremely limited experience, how could you?. Yes, some got a bit snarkey (maybe even myself) when their VALID thoughts and suggestions were met by complete rejection with ZERO attempt, on your part to entertain what you were being told. Your mind was made up and, like I said earlier, you were only looking for validation, not facts or considerations. Unfortunately, the damage is done, not only the potential unseen damage to YOUR gun, but more importantly, the potential for others to follow suit based on you pseudo evidence than steel in Damascus is safe. Some day you will look back At this and think "WHAT THE HELL WAS I THINKING!!!!!".....maybe. Some of the above comments might seem a bit harsh but as a life long shooter and one with a real soft spot for the oil "Damascus" guns, I feel that "kid gloves" won't drive the point home. Now, having been shooting muzzleloaders for over 40 years and having built perhaps a dozen from blanks (the gun in y avatar being one) I shall go see the other thread you mentioned that you started regarding BP shooting. Might see you there.
Oh hell I'm not reading all that lol must have taken you 3 years to type that
Well if you read it, you'd see a point being made, and as far as weighing black powder at
A match... Ummm well i happen to be friends with a member of the
Canadian black powder shooting team..he competes all over world..
Weighing powder on a scale is NOT permitted. At all...its done by volumetric measures.
You can...pre measure charges to compete and have at ready to reload from.
So ..not sure where your saying i use synthetic? I use pyrodex and goex black powder
I weigh the charges by volumetric measures in my Muzzleloader
And shotgun shells...not on a scale...
Gun didnt blow up..great... Just deems you only answered comments supporting your theory
And rejected all else... Sometimes critical comments are warranted.
I find some people only listen if your telling something they want to hear.I also find that some people have to make their own mistakes in life instead taking good advice of other who have experience.One can do something unsafe fifty times and get away with that doesn t mean it was safe it just means you were lucky.Like I said before I had a friend who regularly shot 3inch shells in a 2 3/4 chamber and got away with it but that doesn t mean it was a safe thing to do
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A fool hath no delight in understanding, But that his heart may discover itself.
I have seen many a damascus that gave up the ghost for one reason or another. Mostly I believe is that their life gave out of which is difficult to detect in most cases. We cannot tell what the life expectancy of a damascus barrel is we can guesstimate but there are inherent risks with this as well. Old cannons are the same. I have seen a 6 pounder go off at the breach good number of years ago at an event. It had recently been magna fluxed and other NDT testing procedures to ensure its integrity as it was used among spectators.
Even modern rifles blow apart for some unknown reason with no apparent fault of the shooter metallurgy or process being the culprit even with science and equipment we know today. And to think to temp hand drawn metals with modern shot that was not even thought of let alone tested with in the day.
So if the OP wishes to operate out of the bounds of sanity it may catch to him or her sooner than he thinks.
"Carry on" the only cure for stupidity.
Nuff Said.
I have seen many a damascus that gave up the ghost for one reason or another. Mostly I believe is that their life gave out of which is difficult to detect in most cases. We cannot tell what the life expectancy of a damascus barrel is we can guesstimate but there are inherent risks with this as well. Old cannons are the same. I have seen a 6 pounder go off at the breach good number of years ago at an event. It had recently been magna fluxed and other NDT testing procedures to ensure its integrity as it was used among spectators.
Even modern rifles blow apart for some unknown reason with no apparent fault of the shooter metallurgy or process being the culprit even with science and equipment we know today. And to think to temp hand drawn metals with modern shot that was not even thought of let alone tested with in the day.
So if the OP wishes to operate out of the bounds of sanity it may catch to him or her sooner than he thinks.
"Carry on" the only cure for stupidity.
Nuff Said.
I used the copper to not only patch the 20ga wad to 16 but also to prevent the steel shot from contacting the barrel when fired. Funny enough even the ones who disagreed on other sites still had ideas to pitch on how to get around every issue the idea faced politely, Instead of stomping they're feet and crying like a 2 year old because I wouldn't take they're word for it. I didn't need yes men I needed men that would sit back and think of solutions to problems, not just repeat the problems over and over while calling you braindead. The lack of creativity and the inflated egos in here made my week when everything panned out lol. "YoU mUsT lIsTeN tO mE" ha no sir, no I don't. I think I'll start commenting on these forums more, definitely need some fresh ideas and friendly help for the next generation after me. Plus it's fun as hell watching these guys boil over when someone disagrees with them
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What u wanted was support and validation, and when someone objected to your ideas, you didn't like it...case closed, some agree...some don't...
Way it goes.,
Like calling out everyone who did, it was " your gun...free do as you wish with it"
Your idea to lets say 80% of the chat participants were not in favor...no mater if it of been
100% not in favor...you were clearly doing it...so...it was a pointless experiment to many
As ive said and many others, if steel was safe or feasible in a damascus gun...I'm sure
At Least 1 manufacture would of engineered something long ago, but they wont " push limits"
Or assume liabilities in various qualities and cond of said guns owned by diff people.
To long to read....how about read the long comments...you may gain knowledge or tips along the way.
Way it goes.,
Like calling out everyone who did, it was " your gun...free do as you wish with it"
Your idea to lets say 80% of the chat participants were not in favor...no mater if it of been
100% not in favor...you were clearly doing it...so...it was a pointless experiment to many
As ive said and many others, if steel was safe or feasible in a damascus gun...I'm sure
At Least 1 manufacture would of engineered something long ago, but they wont " push limits"
Or assume liabilities in various qualities and cond of said guns owned by diff people.
To long to read....how about read the long comments...you may gain knowledge or tips along the way.
antiqueguy
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- windsor ontario
He can’t read a long reply how is he going to read the many great books to learn gunsmithing.
My biggest worry isn’t him but who he may sell the gun too down the line. Or whatever else he eventually dose.
My biggest worry isn’t him but who he may sell the gun too down the line. Or whatever else he eventually dose.
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