Sten Guns

Republiman

Republiman

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I've seen lots of cheap Sten kits being sold out of the USA. I'm not grandfathered though so I can only get up to a Restricted class firearm. I was wondering if it's possible to obtain Sten kits and somehow alter the parts to be permanently semi-automatic, and if it's possible what would be the legalities? Would it be Restricted-class? Thanks in advance.
 
Discussing this is against forum rules.

There is at least one company in the USA making semi-auto only Stens (though the internals are heavily modified) that you can import to Canada but it has a 18" barrel. You can shorten it in Canada but it will become restricted.
 
The ones in the US are built on a completely new semi-auto only reciever, much like the 1919 browning machine gun offered by Marstar. So it is NOT a converted FA, and if one jumped through the hoops, one could be imported into Canada. Be prepared for lots of hoops though. :(
 
MarkS said:
The ones in the US are built on a completely new semi-auto only reciever, much like the 1919 browning machine gun offered by Marstar. So it is NOT a converted FA, and if one jumped through the hoops, one could be imported into Canada. Be prepared for lots of hoops though. :(
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The kits in the USA are sold without a receiver. Will the parts in the kits work with a semi-auto receiver, or will the kits only work with FA receivers? Are semi-auto receivers available by themselves?
 
I have a bit of experience with this subject. If you go to www.semiautosten.com, you will see the kits. They are essentially a thicker tube (same outside diameter, smaller inside diameter) and use a new bolt which has a seperate hammer and a floating firing pin. You re-use the origional trigger mechanism, although you weld the change lever to the R position, and you also re-use the magazine housing. The present kit is for a mk3 sten, but it can easily be modified for a mk2.
Note that the barrel extension which they sell in the US, and for that matter the 16 or 18" UZI barrels which are adapted to the sten, will still leave it restricted here.
I built up my kit as a mk2, stamped the model number and serial number on a mag housing which wasn't serialized, and went through the registraion/verification process.
3 months later, the CFC calls and they want to know what I have built. I explain it and email photos. 10 minutes later the tech calls back and through a series of discussion the following problems come up:
1) the RCMP believe the mag housing is the registered part of a sten (since it has the serial number) so since the mag housing came off a prohib F/A gun, then the new gun is a converted auto.
2) the CFC's position is that the trigger housing is the registered portion of the gun, and since the trigger housing I was using was recycled off a F?A gun, then the new gun is a converted auto
3) even though the receiver tube is new, and will not support full auto, this is not of consequence.

I replied to them that :
As per our telecon on 22 Jun, I have attached a photo of subject firearms and a closeup of the mag housing on the SAS-3 (semi-auto sten modified).
The photo of the 3 firearms are, from top to bottom:
1)deleted-not relevant
2) deleted-not relevant
3) SAS-3 (modified to mkII) serial ###X. This is the kit found at www.semiautosten.com and uses some components from an origional sten. It is approved in the USA by the BATF as a newly built semi-auto, not capable of automatic fire. It is shown here normal 32 round sten magazine (once again, pinned to 5 rounds) inserted, and a 5 round magazine next to it. It fires from a closed bolt, and the feed horns of the bolt are far enough back that it will not feed a fresh round if the hammer/firing pin is forward, inlike a normal sten where it features an open bolt with a fixed firing pin. The receiver is only capable of allowing semi-auto fire as well, and the tube will not accomadate a regular sten bolt as it is of a smaller inside diameter. The magazine housing was an unserialised housing to which I have added my own unique serial number.

I will be dis-assembling the sten into it's major components later today (the mag housing and the receiver) and cutting the welds on the receiver to seperate the trigger group from the tube. I, personally, was always under the belief that the receiver was the firearm, and the trigger housing never was an available replacement part to a sten. When the CFC decides what constitutes the firearm, I will replace whatever component qualifies this as a "converted auto" with a newly built and if need be re-designed component. I am still of the belief that this particular firearm was never capable of fully automatic fire, cannot easily be made to do so, and should not be classed as a prohibited firearm. To say the trigger group is the firearm is questionable, as a F/A or C/A sten is fully able to fire a round, and in fact will completely empty the magazine, if the trigger housing is removed. The magazine housing is also fairly insignificant to the firing of a sten (it can still be slam fired), and while that part does usually contain the serial number, so does the wooden stock on a cooey model 82, and it is not overly critical to the operation of that firearm.

Anyway, when your side of the house decides whether or not this firearm is prohibited, and what part of a sten is prohibited, please let me know so I can perform changes if required. Also, please do not hesitate to contact me if you require any further information.

Thanks.
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His response was that he was trying to get it through as a newly manufactured, restricted only, semi auto firearm. That was in June, and I still patiently wait.

If need be, I will design a completely new trigger mechanisn, and if it's the mag housing at fault, I will either build one which takes UZI or sterling mags, if thats what is needed to prevent me from making a C/A.

When I find out I'll let the guys in this forum know. There has been quite a bit of interest in this type a firearm.
 
Claven2 said:
Discussing this is against forum rules.
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Sten kits are not illegal in canada. They are parts only, and since there do exist SA only stens in Canada, that is what they are parts for. 8)

As parts, they are unregulated. Anyone may buy or sell a sten kit. (minus the receiver, which is clearly the tube, regardless of the BS the CFC is trying to feed stencollector)

Unfortunatly it is the policy of Canada Customs not to allow the importation of sten kits from the USA. This does not mean that they are illegal.
 
Sten kits are not illegal in canada. They are parts only, and since there do exist SA only stens in Canada, that is what they are parts for.
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Well, thats not quite true. There may be some semi auto kit guns which were declared on the mass registration which have not been verified, but when they do go for verification, they will get the same stumbling block I've hit. There is no FRT for the SAS-3, and the CFC will need more info.
Still not sure how this will turn out.

Unfortunatly it is the policy of Canada Customs not to allow the importation of sten kits from the USA.
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Thats not exactly true either. The customs bulletin regarding firearms and parts kits says that they will allow them for guys who already have a working example of the gun. You will also need to get the import cert from DFAIT, the US exporter will have to get the export cert from his state department, and you would also need the import permit (again, from DFAIT) . And if the SAS-3 or some other semi auto sten gets accepted as a non-prohib, you still wouldn't need the bolt from the US. It isn't used in the semi auto kits, and would likely get the whole shipment in trouble because it is a part exclusively for use in a prohibited gun. Unless, that is, you already had one lehgally, in which case you likely wouldn't be bothering with a semi auto version.
 
stencollector said:
Sten kits are not illegal in canada. They are parts only, and since there do exist SA only stens in Canada, that is what they are parts for.
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Well, thats not quite true. There may be some semi auto kit guns which were declared on the mass registration which have not been verified, but when they do go for verification, they will get the same stumbling block I've hit. There is no FRT for the SAS-3, and the CFC will need more info.
Still not sure how this will turn out.
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I meant the actual kit minus the receiver, like what you would buy in the states. These are totally uncontrolled spare parts, if they are already in canada. My comment was more in response to Claven's claim that discussion of sten kits was illegal, and against board rules. Assembling the kit, like you are, is of course a whole nother can of worms, but clearly not against board rules either, given the careful way that you are going about it.

Unfortunatly it is the policy of Canada Customs not to allow the importation of sten kits from the USA.
Click to expand...

Thats not exactly true either. The customs bulletin regarding firearms and parts kits says that they will allow them for guys who already have a working example of the gun. You will also need to get the import cert from DFAIT, the US exporter will have to get the export cert from his state department, and you would also need the import permit (again, from DFAIT) . And if the SAS-3 or some other semi auto sten gets accepted as a non-prohib, you still wouldn't need the bolt from the US. It isn't used in the semi auto kits, and would likely get the whole shipment in trouble because it is a part exclusively for use in a prohibited gun. Unless, that is, you already had one lehgally, in which case you likely wouldn't be bothering with a semi auto version.
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The customs policy seems to stem from section 43 of the firearms act:

Liberal dingdongs said:
43. A business may export or import a firearm, prohibited weapon, restricted weapon, prohibited device, component or part designed exclusively for use in the manufacture of or assembly into an automatic firearm or prohibited ammunition only if the business holds an authorization to export or an authorization to import.
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The funny thing about this is that it says "automatic firearm" rather than "prohibited firearm"; to me this reads that parts that will fit a CA sten are not covered by this section, and should be freely importable, assuming any US paperwork is complied with. (Do they need paperwork on dewats?)

Unfortunatly customs reads this differently, as you know. From what I understand it's pretty hard to hold customs to account on their (illegal) policy decisions. If I were a lawyer, it might be a fun hobby, though... :D
 
Don't forget that the CFC now views a C/A as a automatic firearm, now that they are using the CC definition that once a FA, always a F/A.

Dewats are a whole nuther minefield. If it's in the US, a Cdn version of a dewat cannot have it's origional receiver, or else it is a machine gun. Their dewat has to have a solid receiver. That gun here would be a replica (prohibited of course) and not allowed normal import. OUrs has to have the origional receiver.
Funny thing with dewats in the US, if it was registered during the 68 amnesty, it's now worth some coin because it can be repaired back to firing again. If it wasn't registered, then it is subject to seizure, and possible prosecution.

Importing dewats from other countries is still possible, but one mistake or shortcoming on the deactivation and you lose the shipment.
 
The tube is not the receiver by CFC standards the mag housing is because that was the original place the serial number was stamped we don't have to agree with it but in Canada you can have all the tubes you want with the trigger mech attached and it is not a firearm in the CFC eyes it is a firearm if you were to add the mag housing .my buddy has his full auto class with nothing but the mag houseing ...nobody said the boys at the CFC were bright fwitw i beleave this judgement came from forensics..as it stands i have 3 ca stens had i've had this argument way before there was a CFC i argued with forensics inToronto
 
fwitw i beleave this judgement came from forensics
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That was what the CFC tech told me as well. The CFC's take on it is that the trigger housing is, although for the life of me I can't imagine why. Guess it will come down to who is now the firearms authority in Canada, although it sounds like the RCMP forensics is still running the show. Another firearm I am trying to register has been questioned by the forensics, and the file returned to the CFC for further information. That makes a total of 4 firearms I am trying to register, 3 of which are restricted and the 4th I'm trying to keep from being, stuck in cyberspace. Guess this is what it would feel like to own 12X prohibs these days.
 
marks 36 hamon said:
The tube is not the receiver by CFC standards the mag housing is because that was the original place the serial number was ...
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This is such baloney and I think the CFC knows it. I suspect they are deliberatly trying to create a catch-22 between themselves and the RCMP's rulings in order to discourage "sten hobbiests".

I guess if the trigger group or the mag housing are the receiver then I can make a single shot slamfire sten that includes neither, and it won't even be a gun? or certainly not a sten gun, if it has no "sten receiver" attached, according to their definition. Try running that one by them the next time they start shovelling out their BS. One could cut the tube st. there aren't even holes for the mag housing or trigger group. Should be no perfectly legal by their definitions. (whichever one they decide on)
Not much fun, of course, but if it pisses them off I'm all for it. 8)
 
i'm sure they do know it but they are the boss and if i want to play i have to follow their rules ..that said it doesn't mean i agree and i have stated this to them on so many occasions i'm surprised i haven't had a late night wake up call
 
marks 36 hamon said:
i'm sure they do know it but they are the boss and if i want to play i have to follow their rules ..that said it doesn't mean i agree and i have stated this to them on so many occasions i'm surprised i haven't had a late night wake up call
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Yeah, it's guys like you skulking around with firearms licenses and registrations that cause mayhem on the streets of Toronto.

................ with semi auto kit Stens :roll:
 
If mag housing OR trigger housing are the registered part(s)

Aren't those parts unaltered when we buy a DEWAT Sten here in Canada?

At the very least, isn't the mag housing unaltered?

If so, we would be buying LEGALY a "machinegun" while it is considered a non firearm at all?

Wouldn't that be a loophole in the present laws?

About the legality of owning a "legaly unregistered FA" ...

Well, I guess I'm beginning to get confused with all that "legal illegal" stuff.
Anyone can explain it?

JS
 
If need be, I will design a completely new trigger mechanisn, and if it's the mag housing at fault, I will either build one which takes UZI or sterling mags, if thats what is needed to prevent me from making a C/A.
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Easier said than done. Uzi and Sterling mags are two position feed but the Sten bolt is only designed to work from the single position feed magazine.

Suggest you redesign the thing to feed from Lanchester mags. 8)

Both the RCMP and CFC are talking out of their asses. The tube IS the receiver in the real world as JKF aptly demonstrated. I have seen Sten's registered by the original WW2 serial number on the mag housing and other Stens registered by some random number stamped on the trigger guard. So there is no ryme or reason to how Sten's are registered in this country.

IF the mag housing is the registereable part then the RCMP plan will allow less savoury types to separate the mag housing and create two guns from one. STUPID!

We can only hope that reality will smack the burocrats in the face one of these days. :roll:
 
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