Sterling Arms R18 Problem/Disappointment

[Phat Eagle]

I understand your point, however I would assume that if someone was to spend $2.5K on a semi-auto "black" rifle, that is based on an original mil-spec design, one would expect mil-spec results. Again I am only speculating based on the OP's issue, that might be a one off problem.

Funny thing is I served in the military and know mil-spec means made by the lowest bidder!!!!!! Mil-spec ammo for any 5.56mm carbine is brass cased. That said, I've handled and shot the R18 at a DSSMatch.com tactical event, and I would argue it is superior to mil-spec. The fit and finish is excellent, and the ones I shot were close to 1 MOA with bulk ammo. Run proper brass cased ammo and see if your results improve. If you're hell-bent on (somewhat) cheaper ammo I suggest you sell the R18 and buy something forgiving (sloppy) enough to handle steel and aluminum cased ammo.

 

[Gatehouse]

I have personal experience with several millions of rounds of ammo fired. So I am not talking schit.

People talk about lacquer "melting" in chambers and gumming them up but that is not my experience. The lacquer doesn't melt. It's that steel cases don't swell and retract as well as brass and so you get more carbon build up

When we used to have AR15's I had some that we only ran brass in and some we only ran steel in. The steel case ones required more cleaning. But we weren't pulling out lacquer, it was carbon.

In any case, 300 rounds of steel case is a joke. Yes, brass case will always be better but if a rifle can't go 300 rounds of steel case before cleaning the chamber then there is something wrong. This goes for bolt actions, AR15's, SKS, T81, or anything else. I never cleaned my steel case AR15s before 1000 or more rounds.

I have no experience with the Sterling and if the manufacturer specifies only brass case then that's what you should use. Or if the rifle only runs good with brass, then use brass.

FWIW I found a case of Barnual in my shop and ran it through 2 WS-MCR rifles over a few days and it ran fine, even though the rifles were already dirty. If anyone wants to send me a Sterling I can run 7K rounds through it by April, but it will all be brass. I don't like cleaning guns much.

 

[Ceiferiro]

I am willing to bet that your high-lacquer round-count firearms were Russian or Chinese-designed with a chrome-lined chamber and bore and (most relevant), chamber tolerances that you could drive a main battle tank through. That is one of the numerous reasons that Com-bloc weapons tend to be much less accurate than their western counterparts. Loose tolerances and chrome lining will go a long ways towards reliabiity with lacquered steel-case ammo. On the other hand, the SAI R18 Mk2 has much tighter chamber tolerances (Wylde chamber reamer), and is not chrome-lined. Shoot Western brass-cased ammo through your R18 with reasonably regular maintenance (including chamber cleaning) and you won't have any issues. Want to put regular unleaded in your Lambo or shoot lacquered ammo in your R18? Simple - step up the maintentance to deal specifically with the lacquer deposits on the steel chamber walls. That's it, that's all.

Comparisons between firearms designed to fire lacquered ammo and those which are not, are pretty much moot in my books. Obviously, YMMV!

B&T AP 223, ACR, A freaking WS-MCR, Leltek RDB, my ATRS MS and even my OG upper AR180 (and prior to may 1st 2020) my 12.5" BCM and SG5xx all run steel without issues.
As do my Valmets, and HK 630.

I think thats a pretty good range of various firearms all built to various standards and qualities.

 

[Morgan20]

B&T AP 223, ACR, A freaking WS-MCR, Leltek RDB, my ATRS MS and even my OG upper AR180 (and prior to may 1st 2020) my 12.5" BCM and SG5xx all run steel without issues.
As do my Valmets, and HK 630.

I think thats a pretty good range of various firearms all built to various standards and qualities.

I have put about 2000 rounds of Barnaul through my Type 97 and WS MCR without cleaning the chamber with a brush and have suffered no malfunctions. Something tells me the R18 is a rifle that has to be babied with brass cased ammo. Honestly I don't care for 1.5 MOA out of a fighting rifle which the R18 purports to be capable of. I simply want a combat accurate rifle that can be fed all types of ammo and not just expensive brass cased ammo. I am not one of those shooters who tries to turn a 556 semi auto into some sort of precision rifle which I hear Sterling Arms constantly talk about how accurate the R18 is. I may have to sell it and buy a X95.

 

[the radium king]

all speculation at this point. the fact that the rifle went from hero to zero suddenly instead of gradually seems to indicate to me something other than build-up. chamber would be first thing to check of course, but a broken extractor or piece of a popped primer wedged in the bolt bace sounds a bit more likely given what little info we have.

also, tight chamber would give a failure to extract/eject. the fact that the bolt is making it all the way back and able to strip the next round means it's not working too hard to cycle ...

 

[Bartok5]

I have put about 2000 rounds of Barnaul through my Type 97 and WS MCR without cleaning the chamber with a brush and have suffered no malfunctions. Something tells me the R18 is a rifle that has to be babied with brass cased ammo. Honestly I don't care for 1.5 MOA out of a fighting rifle which the R18 purports to be capable of. I simply want a combat accurate rifle that can be fed all types of ammo and not just expensive brass cased ammo. I am not one of those shooters who tries to turn a 556 semi auto into some sort of precision rifle which I hear Sterling Arms constantly talk about how accurate the R18 is. I may have to sell it and buy a X95.

You evidently bought the wrong rifle. You clearly want a firearm with a military pedigree that is capable of high round-counts between cleanings such as the Bren 2, an X95, or a G36 (whenever TI dribbles out their stock). I'd recommend selling your R18 and buying either of those three as the last remaining 5.56mm military designs currently available in Canada for purchase in brand new condition (not counting the T97). You will get 2 MOA out of the Bren or G36 with bulk ball fodder, likely a little worse with the X95. Unless you manage to find an ACR DMR brought in from the USA, you are either stuck with those choices or a pre-owned SG 540, ACR, etc. The X95 will be your cheapest option at $2400 on sale. You are looking at $4.5K and up for the others, including the used SG 540s and ACRs.

As far as the AR180B-derived designs are concerned, the new Templar may prove to be the most reliable of the bunch. Time will tell. They are all low-rate production "boutique" guns, CNC machined out of aluminum billet or extrusion. The tolerances are tighter than typical military-designs, leading to mismatched expectations verus performance. None of them is a 100% copy of the AR180B, nor are any of them (or their parts) "mil-spec". It is therefore perhaps unreasonable to expect a rifle designed and manufactured by comparative amateurs to perform at the same level as a professionally-designed and mass-produced military service rifle made from the highest quality materials on the most modern machinery available. Hence, we don''t typically see Cold Hammer Forged barrels on our domestically-produced AR180B derivatives. The domestic AR180 designs are not military designs nor are they defence products, The sooner Canadian consumers realize this distinction, the more satisfied they will be with their choices.

 

[Morgan20]

I have personal experience with several millions of rounds of ammo fired. So I am not talking schit.

People talk about lacquer "melting" in chambers and gumming them up but that is not my experience. The lacquer doesn't melt. It's that steel cases don't swell and retract as well as brass and so you get more carbon build up

When we used to have AR15's I had some that we only ran brass in and some we only ran steel in. The steel case ones required more cleaning. But we weren't pulling out lacquer, it was carbon.

In any case, 300 rounds of steel case is a joke. Yes, brass case will always be better but if a rifle can't go 300 rounds of steel case before cleaning the chamber then there is something wrong. This goes for bolt actions, AR15's, SKS, T81, or anything else. I never cleaned my steel case AR15s before 1000 or more rounds.

I have no experience with the Sterling and if the manufacturer specifies only brass case then that's what you should use. Or if the rifle only runs good with brass, then use brass.

FWIW I found a case of Barnual in my shop and ran it through 2 WS-MCR rifles over a few days and it ran fine, even though the rifles were already dirty. If anyone wants to send me a Sterling I can run 7K rounds through it by April, but it will all be brass. I don't like cleaning guns much.

I was told by Sterling Arms directly that the chamber can clogged by Barnaul in as little as 75 rounds....

 

[Bartok5]

B&T AP 223, ACR, A freaking WS-MCR, Leltek RDB, my ATRS MS and even my OG upper AR180 (and prior to may 1st 2020) my 12.5" BCM and SG5xx all run steel without issues.
As do my Valmets, and HK 630.

I think thats a pretty good range of various firearms all built to various standards and qualities.

Yes, it is. However the R18 clearly struggles with Steel-cased ammo. Logic therefore dictates that you either fire brass at a nominally higher cost, or you sell the R18 and buy something that will reliably shoot Russian or Chinese ammo all day long without cleaning. The solution to this particular problem is clear. The manufacturer most likely won't compromise accuracy in an attempt to further improve steel-cased ammo reliability, so the answer is to avoid the R18 if you are frugal with your ammo budget and have an affinity for steel-cased ammo. Simple.

 

[Ustauk]

Did you try dialing up the gas? The point of the heavy gassing in the WK and MCR is to push through steel all the time. You wouldn't want to overgas the Sterling forever, but you should be able to dial it up to finish the dirty old Barnaul range session when things start to foul.

 

[Ceiferiro]

Did you try dialing up the gas? The point of the heavy gassing in the WK and MCR is to push through steel all the time. You wouldn't want to overgas the Sterling forever, but you should be able to dial it up to finish the dirty old Barnaul range session when things start to foul.

With my R18 I had to open up all the way and Id still have a malf every 8~10 rounds with steel.
Rifle clearly hates the ammo. Although I had to send my upper in to be completely replaced as by round 500 it completely stopped cycling even with fancy pants Barns loads.
After the upper was replaced it still wouldnt run steel but it ran brass just fine. Which I mean is fine, my stash is like 90% m193/xm193 so Peeposhrug.png

 

[Ceiferiro]

Yes, it is. However the R18 clearly struggles with Steel-cased ammo. Logic therefore dictates that you either fire brass at a nominally higher cost, or you sell the R18 and buy something that will reliably shoot Russian or Chinese ammo all day long without cleaning. The solution to this particular problem is clear. The manufacturer most likely won't compromise accuracy in an attempt to further improve steel-cased ammo reliability, so the answer is to avoid the R18 if you are frugal with your ammo budget and have an affinity for steel-cased ammo. Simple.

So what youre saying is...its not operator error now ?
Its an issue with the firearm :^)

 

[BlackVoid]

......

 

[Morgan20]

Did you try dialing up the gas? The point of the heavy gassing in the WK and MCR is to push through steel all the time. You wouldn't want to overgas the Sterling forever, but you should be able to dial it up to finish the dirty old Barnaul range session when things start to foul.

I think I am going to exclusively run brass cased ammo in it from now on.

 

[the radium king]

whether it can or cant run steel/coated isn't a deal-breaker PROVIDED it was advertised as such. kinda a poor thing to find out after the fact. after a quick review of the website and manual all i could find re ammunition was this:

"The SAI Rifle is chambered for .223 Wylde: It will safely fire all standardized factory NATO military 5.56mm cartridges and all factory loaded cartridges in the .223 Remington calibers."

so for them to come back and say btw it doesn't run coated ammo seems a bit disingenuous.

i'd still suggest the op get out from behind the computer and confirm the problem (more than enough advice here already) instead of hosting this circus.

 

[Bartok5]

So what youre saying is...its not operator error now ?
Its an issue with the firearm :^)

At this point I honestly don't know. At first I was 100% convinced that it had to be simple chamber fouling from lacquer deposits, however now I am not so sure. It is difficult to diagnose a problem when people keep chiming in with new information or experiences which contradict the suggested causes and solutions. The inconsistency reported from one R18 to the next is what gives me pause in my "remote" trouble-shooting efforts. My own R18 seems to handle steel-cased ammo fine, however I have never tried to fire more than 100 rounds in a sitting before reverting to brass (which is 99% of my holdings). I'm not about to buy more steel to test when I now know that it is problematic! I suspect that the problems are still related to the R18's tight chamber dimensions, however there may be other gremlins at work which I am not aware of. At the end of the day, it may be a problem without a complete explanation that simply has to be accepted as a limitation of the R18 as manufactured. The trade-off is enhanced accuracy over the rack-grade military-style firearms, however whether that is important to the end-user or not should probably factor into their buying decision.

I am sure that SAI's lack of warning about the steel-cased ammo is not intentional. They would have had no more indication of the problem than I had, which is none whatsoever. Now that the problem is evident and more widespread than thought (according to the reports in this thread), I suspect that they will amend their User Manual in due course to provide a suitable warning. Look on the bright side - at least your R18 came with an Owner's Manual, unlike the Spectre/Crusader Templar....

In my humble estimation, the bottom line remains a tight chamber exacerbated by lacquer residue (and/or carbon). There may be other contributing factors, which are currently undetermined. The real lesson here is that if you want to shoot cheap steel-cased ammo, get yourself something with a military pedigree. All of the Canadian-manufactured AR180B derivatives are politicial work-around, boutique guns with limitations, whether those are related to parts breakage or spotty reliability with steel-cased ammo. Sadly, if you don't have $3400 kicking around in your wallet a conventional rifle with a military design may not be attainable, which leaves you with the Canadian AR180 options. If that is your situation and you cannot afford more than an WK-180, a Templar or an R18, then simply shoot brass-cased ammo.

 

[S3RVO]

Morgan does your bolt rotate freely in the BCG? Apparently sterling used a fairly weak split pin for the extractor and it would bend easily, I believe they are using a double wrapped roll pin (spring pin) now and I'm sure they would send you one if needed

 

[Morgan20]

Morgan does your bolt rotate freely in the BCG? Apparently sterling used a fairly weak split pin for the extractor and it would bend easily, I believe they are using a double wrapped roll pin (spring pin) now and I'm sure they would send you one if needed

No it does not rotate. Once I reassemble the bolt, the bolt head does not flick forward or backwards like an AR15 bolt carrier group. Is it supposed to flick forward and backwards?

 

[S3RVO]

ya it should rotate really nice and should even rotate simply by tilting the BCG back and forth, I'd be willing the bet the roll pin for the extractor has bent and allowed the extractor to stick out slightly and cause some extra friction between the BCG and extractor. As a temporary fix you might be able to remove that pin and rotate it 180 degree, otherwise I'd contact sterling for a new pin.

 

[Bartok5]

ya it should rotate really nice and should even rotate simply by tilting the BCG back and forth, I'd be willing the bet the roll pin for the extractor has bent and allowed the extractor to stick out slightly and cause some extra friction between the BCG and extractor. As a temporary fix you might be able to remove that pin and rotate it 180 degree, otherwise I'd contact sterling for a new pin.

Interesting - sounds like that could be the culprit. The Bolt should definitely be freely moving within the Bolt Carrier, rotating as the Cam Pin moves in its slot on the Carrier.

 

[DaveMachine]

I'm surprised it cycles anything lol