By ordinary people I mean just that, people without specialized training - civilians, military, and even police. People should be able to own anything they want, but we seem to 'need' some pretty spectacular gear these days to do things that Grandad did with pretty unspectacular gear.
Steyr SSG or Scout rifle
- Thread starter Got Juice?
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By ordinary people I mean just that, people without specialized training - civilians, military, and even police. People should be able to own anything they want, but we seem to 'need' some pretty spectacular gear these days to do things that Grandad did with pretty unspectacular gear.
From what I can see, nobody in this thread said that .308WIN in not a 1000m calibre (which I would take to mean "capable of hitting targets at 1000m"), and if they did, yeah, they would be incorrect.
What I said was:
[With empahsis]
Subject to an infinite number of variables, a 168gr. match bullet shot from a .308WIN will drop more than 40MOA at 1000 yards. The same bullet will drop about 30MOA, or 25% less, in a .300WinMag. The cost difference of starting with .300WinMag rather than .308WIN will be small. The cost of starting over with a different calibre will be more significant. That alone is the kind of thing the OP obviously isn't thinking about.
With respect to the OP, he is obviously a total newb that hasn't thought through any of these issues, and pretty much just likes the look of the Steyrs (and the HK's and the AI's, apparently), and picked the number 1000m out of the air to try and sound like he was planning to do some serious shooting, and that is fine. But as I said in my post:
IMHO, calibre should be at the top of the list of things to research, not looks. That is all I'm suggesting.
There is a reason I have $30,000 worth of .308WIN rifles in that picture. It's a great all-around cartridge. But would I recommend it for people who plan to (as I asked) "shoot for groups, competitively at 1000m?", no I wouldn't.
Yah, but as my AW buddy, I'm sure we can agree... routine hits at 600m with a great rifle and great (modern-style) optics on a Fig14 is routine.... but with iron sights... all kinds of frustration and wasted ammo down range.
At 1000 yards with iron sights... these days you're probably making a video and putting it on Youtube to show kids that it can actually be done (with a Mosin, Enfield, .308WIN, etc.). I don't care what anybody claims they can do on the Internet. That kind of shooting is REALLY, REALLY HARD, and far beyond the obvious newb tendencies of the OP.
Of course it can be done. It's just hard, and frustrating way to learn anything about shooting. Even some of these Youtube guys, with a tuned trigger Mosin, custom front sight, 20, 30, 40 years of shooting experience, dead-steady off a bench, and even they can barely touch the gong one out of 5 shots at 1000 yards. Everybody says (on the internet) that they can do it, but the rubber really hits the road out there when the camera is rolling.
I would probably say, get a 308WIN but forget the 1000m idea. Start at 100m, then 200m, 300m, 600m or whatever. If you can't shoot sub-MOA at 100m, you aren't likely to do any better further out.
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Got Juice?
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So, a TRG might be a better choice?
Than a Scout or an SSG69 for shooting out as far as (potentially) 1000m... yes.
TRG doesn't limit you on optics, rings, rails or any of that kind of thing like an SSG69. Doesn't have the skinny barrel issues the Scout has.
All the modern TRG, AI, SSG08, PSR-type, chassis-type rifles are going to be about equal in my view.
TRG doesn't limit you on optics, rings, rails or any of that kind of thing like an SSG69. Doesn't have the skinny barrel issues the Scout has.
All the modern TRG, AI, SSG08, PSR-type, chassis-type rifles are going to be about equal in my view.
Got Juice?
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Any other Suggestions? I see CZ has a rifle that is similar to the TRG
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Another factor to consider is where the OP lives. In Ontario "ranges" are required to be approved by the Chief Provincial Firearms Officer. I do not know of any non-military ranges that have been approved that are 1000 yds. There may be a few - and there is certainly one under construction by MILCUN ... but I couldnt tell you where any others exist. There are certain conditions under which non-military shooters can use the few 1000 yd military ranges but access is not a simple matter. ALSO many military ranges, with a few exceptions, that a non-military shooter can fire on will prohibit certain cartridges which can make shooting a .338 Lapua at a 1000yds a bit of a problem - if you are in Ontario.... each of the other provinces will have a different story... but you may wish to check that before you select the cartridge you want to use.
Also before being too tough on the .308W its worthwhile considering that last year at the Palma matches, Toby Raincock of GB firing 90 rounds of 155gr 308 over two days at ranges of 800, 900 and 1000 yds and scored 449 (against a HPS of 450) and 55 of the 90 rds he fired (under pressure of time and competition) went inside a 10 inch circle. Now bear in mind - he did this while firing 'off his elbows' (no bipod or artificial rest) with iron sights (no 24x scope) and he did it at a range adjacent to Lake Erie that can be (and was) notoriously windy. The 308 may not be the absolute best for 1000 yd target shooting -- but it doesnt have to hang it's head in shame either and it has significant advantages.
BTW - I posted earlier about Alan Warner (Warner Tools) new product - flat line bullets .. and the video demonstrating their use is an eye opener wrt to what an impact they can have on 308W ballistics
Also before being too tough on the .308W its worthwhile considering that last year at the Palma matches, Toby Raincock of GB firing 90 rounds of 155gr 308 over two days at ranges of 800, 900 and 1000 yds and scored 449 (against a HPS of 450) and 55 of the 90 rds he fired (under pressure of time and competition) went inside a 10 inch circle. Now bear in mind - he did this while firing 'off his elbows' (no bipod or artificial rest) with iron sights (no 24x scope) and he did it at a range adjacent to Lake Erie that can be (and was) notoriously windy. The 308 may not be the absolute best for 1000 yd target shooting -- but it doesnt have to hang it's head in shame either and it has significant advantages.
BTW - I posted earlier about Alan Warner (Warner Tools) new product - flat line bullets .. and the video demonstrating their use is an eye opener wrt to what an impact they can have on 308W ballistics
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Got Juice?
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I live in BC, and have private property 
If you want to shoot 1000m I don't know why you wouldn't look at some of the new factory offerings in 6.5 Creedmoor. Cheaper to shoot and less recoil than any magnum, better barrel life, much better ballistics than a .308 and good out to 1400+. I have nothing against .308, that's what I shoot now (though I'm putting together a switch barrel setup in .223/6.5CM/.308) and shoot it weekly out to 870 yards (when my new steel arrives that'll be 970) and have shot it past 1000 in matches. It's fine but it's just not ideal. If you're starting from the ground up and your interest is shooting at 1000, might as well select a ballistically superior round. My $0.02
mebiuspower
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For me personally, I tend to stick with NATO/military calibers that have a long track history. How long ago was it that people call 9mm weak/dead/outdated and .40S&W/10mm/45ACP/.357Sig or whatever the latest and greatest is until everyone goes right back to 9mm because of improved ballistics.
In due time someone will come up with a better .308 bullet.
And for everything else that .30 caliber bullet can't reach, there's .50 BMG.
Yes, maybe you are right, after all: ww w.warner-tool.com/flat-line-projectiles
You can't mag feed those (depending on seating depth but in general) and they are a ridiculous price compared to standard bullets.
The 308 is not dead - still a great round - but as Rugbydave said there are new offerings that bring lots to the table. A good 6.5 bullet will do everything that most guys want it to.
If you want a military cartridge with a long history try the 6.5X55, designed in 1891, makes the 308 a baby being designed in the 1950's. Loaded up in a modern action you can push the 140s to 2,800+ fps.
I think the comparison to the whole 9mm vs .45 is kinda apples and oranges. If I recall, that's more of an argument about terminal ballistics. If they make a better .308 bullet (which they seem to do every year anyways, reference the new ELD-Ms and RDFs) the improved ballistics will also be applied to the new 6.5mm bullet. With the availability of good match ammo in 6.5CM for those who don't reload, again, there is really no reason to get a .308 if your intended use is to routinely shoot to 1000m (unless you plan on competing in a tactical/limited division). If your concern is being able to shoot surplus NATO ammo, well, I hope you have a big target out at 1000m
mebiuspower
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My home club is only 300m, won't be shooting 1000m anytime soon.
I never said surplus NATO ammo.
I never said surplus NATO ammo.
Staying with a NATO cartridge just because of well, NATO, is a stupid reason to stick with caliber, especially in the precision rifle world. So much better, mission specific options. Just because NATO uses it, it doesn't make it the best (it never is).
However, there are some new interesting new projectile options for the .308, one of them being this: http://www.scout.com/military/snipers-hide/story/1723284-warner-tool-flat-line-160gr-solids
Yeah, fair enough, for 300m .308, .223 it's all good. The OP stated he wanted to shoot 1000m
