Still not extracting
- Thread starter Rayleigh_Scattering
- Start date
Rayleigh_Scattering
Regular
- Location
- Under the arch
Well - when you say front end of the case, I assume you mean the muzzle end. Take a fired case and insert it into the chamber by hand - do you feel any resistance or interference?
I think this is the problem with those shells - the extractor just can't get a bite on that curved edge. An O/U or SxS would have no problem with it, but the narrow claw extractor on a pump or semi will have trouble with it. Find different ammo. I'm sure when you go to the store you'd be able to explain the issue to someone and they could let you check out different shells.
sillymike
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
Might be worth his while to compare the shape of the extractor, to that of other shotguns.
- Winchester/Remington/Mossberg/Benelli/Beretta are able to make shotguns that run these shells without issues...
- Winchester/Remington/Mossberg/Benelli/Beretta are able to make shotguns that run these shells without issues...
I have witnessed super x1 , beretta 300 ‘s and variants Rem 1100’s and few other quality guns with 100’s of thousands of rounds through them at the trap and skeet rangers no extractor issues . The problem with this gun is guess what the gun yes it’s chunk .
Rayleigh_Scattering
Regular
- Location
- Under the arch
Update:
I removed the barrel and put an unfired short-aluminum-base shell into the chamber. The gap between the breech face and the shell base is 0.019". SAAMI allows a wide range of thickness for the rim, so that didn't tell me much.
I then emptied the propellant and primer from that shell, reassembled the gun and started adding shims to the back to see how much total clearance there was with everything fully assembled.
Each layer of electrical tape added 0.007" to the base of the shell. At the 6th layer the charging handle no longer went forward all the way although it was close, and did lock up with slight forward pressure or if the bolt was released to travel at speed from the recoil spring.
I understand that as meaning that the clearance for this shell base geometry is just under 0.04", half of which is shell clearance to the breech face and half is bolt offset from the breech face at lockup.
The result was the same with two other brands of shells I tried. 5 layers x 0.007" fit. 6 x 0.007" prevented full lockup.
Now I've got to try to figure out whether a 0.02" bolt face gap is a problem. Seems like 0" gap would work with the recoil spring pushing it forward into battery.
I should check firing pin protrusion too to see if there is any room to build up the bolt face. At least that number isn't model specific.
And see if my spare parts box has a breech block or at least the recoil lug. Swapping in a less-worn version of either of those would help.
I removed the barrel and put an unfired short-aluminum-base shell into the chamber. The gap between the breech face and the shell base is 0.019". SAAMI allows a wide range of thickness for the rim, so that didn't tell me much.
I then emptied the propellant and primer from that shell, reassembled the gun and started adding shims to the back to see how much total clearance there was with everything fully assembled.
Each layer of electrical tape added 0.007" to the base of the shell. At the 6th layer the charging handle no longer went forward all the way although it was close, and did lock up with slight forward pressure or if the bolt was released to travel at speed from the recoil spring.
I understand that as meaning that the clearance for this shell base geometry is just under 0.04", half of which is shell clearance to the breech face and half is bolt offset from the breech face at lockup.
The result was the same with two other brands of shells I tried. 5 layers x 0.007" fit. 6 x 0.007" prevented full lockup.
Now I've got to try to figure out whether a 0.02" bolt face gap is a problem. Seems like 0" gap would work with the recoil spring pushing it forward into battery.
I should check firing pin protrusion too to see if there is any room to build up the bolt face. At least that number isn't model specific.
And see if my spare parts box has a breech block or at least the recoil lug. Swapping in a less-worn version of either of those would help.
Last edited:
I'm having trouble understanding your thought process wrt your extraction issue. I dont think headspace on a rimmed low pressure straight-wall shell (shotgun hull) can cause the issues encountered on other cartridges (eg brass case, bottleneck, high pressure).
I would expect the primary function of the shotgun rim is to immobilize the shell such that the firing pin can act. Additionally, the rim aids in extraction and ejection. In your case, the gun fires, inferring sufficient firing pin protrusion.
Still dont understand your trumpet comment. Are you saying there is a radius that has formed at the rim/base juncture? If so, is it due to firing, or is it present on virgin shells.
I would expect the primary function of the shotgun rim is to immobilize the shell such that the firing pin can act. Additionally, the rim aids in extraction and ejection. In your case, the gun fires, inferring sufficient firing pin protrusion.
Still dont understand your trumpet comment. Are you saying there is a radius that has formed at the rim/base juncture? If so, is it due to firing, or is it present on virgin shells.
Rayleigh_Scattering
Regular
- Location
- Under the arch
>radius
bingo
>due to firing
yup
>unfired
nope
>protrusion
That's for in case I decide to solder a shim to the bolt face. Its thickness would subtract from that protrusion. Not likely I'll go that route, though. Too invasive. I'll check a bunch of other things first.
bingo
>due to firing
yup
>unfired
nope
>protrusion
That's for in case I decide to solder a shim to the bolt face. Its thickness would subtract from that protrusion. Not likely I'll go that route, though. Too invasive. I'll check a bunch of other things first.
OK - so the radius limits the extractors grip on the shell. As the shell is extracted from the chamber, it flexes or wobbles enough to cause the extractor to lose its grip. I reload shotgun shells (not Winchester promo) and while the whole case head expands slightly through firing, I dont see a pronounced radius as you mention. So I see this as an ammo issue, possibly compounded by the fitness of the ejection system. One additional factor that can certainly contribute to the mix is the metal base sticking in the chamber, and putting more load on the extractor. This can be due to rust in the chamber, or lack of polishing (a la Rem 870 express), or a lip. However, some shells are more prone to sticking than others - again Winchester promo shells. You should be able to ascertain whether the shells are sticking in the chamber, if so, the remedy is very simple.
I would suggest you not make any further gun investigations until you try a sampling of other promo or target shells, you may be pleasantly surprised.
Rayleigh_Scattering
Regular
- Location
- Under the arch
I made a number of short-sighted decisions when I was younger. It seemed like a good idea at the time, but the older they get the more they eat.
So hobbies are things on which I spend hours, not dollars.
Doesn't everybody enjoy solving mechanical puzzles? It's like an Escape Room challenge!
Turkeyslayer 1300
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Russell, Ontario
I would say poor quality aluminum based ammo and a Turkish made shotgun of mildly suspicious quality are the issues here.
Rayleigh_Scattering
Regular
- Location
- Under the arch
So, I popped out the bolt, chucked it up on a 4 yaw centered on the firing pin hole and machined a 0.02" x .690" recess into the bolt face.
The old front differential from the 'burban donated a piece of hardened shaft which was turned to fit the recess, soldered into place while slowly spinning (nerve-wracking as always) and then turned down to a smooth side transition and filed to profile the rest of the way around.
After trimming it took the old 0.042" gap down to 0.017". It goes into battery correctly and everything looks like it clears. Firing pin protrusion is now just under 0.100 at the tip.
We shall see how it works when I head up to the range next.
The old front differential from the 'burban donated a piece of hardened shaft which was turned to fit the recess, soldered into place while slowly spinning (nerve-wracking as always) and then turned down to a smooth side transition and filed to profile the rest of the way around.
After trimming it took the old 0.042" gap down to 0.017". It goes into battery correctly and everything looks like it clears. Firing pin protrusion is now just under 0.100 at the tip.
We shall see how it works when I head up to the range next.
Attachments
Last edited:
If your firing pin protrusion is truly 0.1 inches, theres gonna be trouble. 0.065 inches is more common.Rayleigh_Scattering
Regular
- Location
- Under the arch
>own approach
I’m not discounting the other options, and donations to the “Buy Raleigh a better shotgun” fund will be cheerfully accepted.
>0.065
I do worry about that.
It was .125 before, although the firing pin was not original.
>problems
If you’re going to tel me that excessive firing pin protrusion often manifests as failure to extract I will face-palm very hard.
I’m not discounting the other options, and donations to the “Buy Raleigh a better shotgun” fund will be cheerfully accepted.
>0.065
I do worry about that.
It was .125 before, although the firing pin was not original.
>problems
If you’re going to tel me that excessive firing pin protrusion often manifests as failure to extract I will face-palm very hard.
Last edited:
Rayleigh_Scattering
Regular
- Location
- Under the arch
Success! Clean extraction and zing-it-into-the snow for the first time ever.
The trumpet shape is gone, too.
*clicks heels*
>Priced primer
Makes sense. I’ll measure up a few when I get back to civilization.
The trumpet shape is gone, too.
*clicks heels*
>Priced primer
Makes sense. I’ll measure up a few when I get back to civilization.
