Stoeger Tactical Coach Gun

[TDC]

One final thought on the issue as it applies to Home Defence, and the reason they actually do sell half decent numbers of these guns to folks down south, is ease of use. Even if your partner-family etc isn't a gunnut(s), you can easily teach them break-load-close-fire, especially if it isnt two triggers, or external hammers, in which case pretty much anyone can use it in a pinch. I know I can teach a chimp how to use a SXS with no hammers in an emergency, how to use a semi, plus clear a jam etc, not so likely.

Ease of use is often the excuse used to justfiy poor training and a minimal mindset. Anyone who is serious about personal defense especially with a firearm needs to be dedicated to the task and mentally confident in their abilities. Covering the basics on how to load, shoot and eject shells from a double gun produces nothing but a false sense of capability. Furthermore, the addition of the rails both atop and bottom indicate the use of either optics(which don't belong on shotguns) and lights are forcast. That being the case, the effective use of a weapon mounted light is not a born trait. For those who have or will seek professional training for such accessories, the fact that the rail in question is attached to a SXS contadicts the very mindset being sought.

The comparision between a double gun and a semi highlights the lack of knowledge by the poster. Semi auto shotguns are heavy, often ammo sensitive, less than 100% reliable and cost significantly more than a pump gun. The double gun, although cheaper, lighter, and arguably more reliable. Are not well suited for defensive work. Again, if you have the choice, a SXS isn't one.

TDC

 

[Spcamno]

I totally agreed with what TDC said and SxS is not and will not be the best HD gun that's why I choose my Mossy 590 (now sold) and currently using a Beretta 1201FP.

However, I remember there is a thread regarding home defense and if you do indeed use any firearm in the event of a home invasion a hunting shotgun (SxS?) might look innocent than your zombie prep shotgun (short barrel with holographic sight and surefire forend etc).

I remember one member said he rather judge by twelve than carry by six and that make sense and the best home defense shotgun is the gun you can capable / confidence to use under any condition but of course your 28" barrel goose gun is out of the equation being in any CQC.

 

[Win/64]

The double gun, although cheaper, lighter, and arguably more reliable. Are not well suited for defensive work. Again, if you have the choice, a SXS isn't one.

TDC

My God I can't believe the crap you actually write down. In what Planet is a
SxS cheaper than a pump gun? Unless you are talking about something made in "China".
Have you ever looked down the "wrong" end of a SxS? A SxS is much more reliable than a Pump and much easier to use if you are inexperienced.
Small wonder you are on so many ignore lists. Your posts have no validity. Just a lot of ramblings with no merit in fact.

 

[ABDUKNUT]

Double barreled rifles are extremely expensive these days, and I don't think they are as popular in Africa and many believe. Many PH that make their living in DG hunting do in fact use them, for reasons that are obvious, but in Africa and Alaska, big bore bolt rifles are much more prevalent as 'stoppers'. Economics and availability being the primary reason. Side by side rifles will never disappear in Africa and it's the one place where they will always exist and be used, but they aren't the only type of rifle used, nor are they the only suitable choice.

 

[Win/64]

Ease of use is often the excuse used to justfiy poor training and a minimal mindset. Anyone who is serious about personal defense especially with a firearm needs to be dedicated to the task and mentally confident in their abilities. Covering the basics on how to load, shoot and eject shells from a double gun produces nothing but a false sense of capability. Furthermore, the addition of the rails both atop and bottom indicate the use of either optics(which don't belong on shotguns) and lights are forcast. That being the case, the effective use of a weapon mounted light is not a born trait. For those who have or will seek professional training for such accessories, the fact that the rail in question is attached to a SXS contadicts the very mindset being sought.

The comparision between a double gun and a semi highlights the lack of knowledge by the poster. Semi auto shotguns are heavy, often ammo sensitive, less than 100% reliable and cost significantly more than a pump gun. The double gun, although cheaper, lighter, and arguably more reliable. Are not well suited for defensive work. Again, if you have the choice, a SXS isn't one.

TDC

Nice edit.

 

[TDC]

My God I can't believe the crap you actually write down. In what Planet is a
SxS cheaper than a pump gun? Unless you are talking about something made in "China".
Have you ever looked down the "wrong" end of a SxS? A SxS is much more reliable than a Pump and much easier to use if you are inexperienced.
Small wonder you are on so many ignore lists. Your posts have no validity. Just a lot of ramblings with no merit in fact.

My apologies for the "cheaper comment" I viewed the DA shotguns on Canada Ammo's website and was referrencing the single barrel break action price of $150 as compared to the $299 for the double. You are correct, SXS shotguns aren't cheap, in fact the Chinese made DA Outlaw is more money than a quality pump gun. I'm well aware that quality SXS shotguns cost a premium. That being the case, why would anyone decide to use an inferior system that costs more as an HD firearm?

"Looking down the "wrong" end of a SXS" has nothing to do with its capabilities. The myth that an individual will be intimidated by looks alone is founded in hollywood crap.

The relative ease of use with a SXS compared to a pump gun is an advantage..."If you are inexperienced". Which is exactly my point. If you're unwilling to train, and lacking in mindset, the gear you use is irrelevent. The decision to use a SXS over a pump gun clearly indicates your lack of fore thought with regards to defensive guns and tactics as well as ones lack of skill.

If the SXS is all you have, you make do. If you have the choice, the SXS isn't one..

TDC

 

[pharaoh2]

I'll take a double anything over any tactical plastic wonder. Pictinny rails and built in shell holders don't make the gun, and any gun that requires batteries to run the sight is garbage. And made in China crap doesn't count.

 

[Covey Ridge]

How about adding a pair of door breacher on a SxS shotty?

Found this on another forum I think its insane and want you guys to see it:

Yep! That would come in handy in case the old lady locked ya out cause you stayed at the range too late

 

[Win/64]

My apologies for the "cheaper comment" I viewed the DA shotguns on Canada Ammo's website and was referrencing the single barrel break action price of $150 as compared to the $299 for the double. You are correct, SXS shotguns aren't cheap, in fact the Chinese made DA Outlaw is more money than a quality pump gun. I'm well aware that quality SXS shotguns cost a premium. That being the case, why would anyone decide to use an inferior system that costs more as an HD firearm?

"Looking down the "wrong" end of a SXS" has nothing to do with its capabilities. The myth that an individual will be intimidated by looks alone is founded in hollywood crap.

The relative ease of use with a SXS compared to a pump gun is an advantage..."If you are inexperienced". Which is exactly my point. If you're unwilling to train, and lacking in mindset, the gear you use is irrelevant. The decision to use a SXS over a pump gun clearly indicates your lack of fore thought with regards to defensive guns and tactics as well as ones lack of skill.

If the SXS is all you have, you make do. If you have the choice, the SXS isn't one..

TDC

You ramble on and on about a SxS not being a good choice as a defensive weapon. But you never say why...Correct me if I am wrong, Your idea of a defensive weapon is a cheap Chinese Pump gun with all kinds of buzzers and lights hanging off of it.
Somehow that does not scream reliability to me. Even the most experienced users are capable of short pumping a pump gun in the heat of the moment. That can't happen with a good double.

 

[TDC]

You ramble on and on about a SxS not being a good choice as a defensive weapon. But you never say why...Correct me if I am wrong, Your idea of a defensive weapon is a cheap Chinese Pump gun with all kinds of buzzers and lights hanging off of it.
Somehow that does not scream reliability to me. Even the most experienced users are capable of short pumping a pump gun in the heat of the moment. That can't happen with a good double.

You really need me to point out the negatives of a SXS(or over under)??

Two rounds before reloading is a collosal failure

Aside from the DA guns the barrels are overly long

Aside from the abortion posted in this thread there is no effective method of attaching a light

Spare ammunition must be kept on the operator with the exception of a stock mounted shell holder which does not permit support side firing and is far from easy to reach when reloading.

Follow up shots are limited to ONE

The absense of ejectors on some guns

The increased cost for an inferior system

If you've read any of my posts, I don't own Chinese crap, and I never will. A suitable defensive shotgun includes the following.

Pump action
tritium bead or ghost ring sights
Fore-end light or similar setup
Side saddle
Sling

The potential for operator failure is present with all systems and all levels of skill. Its one of the risks of life we all must take. Adequate training and quality equipment that is suited for the task at hand both greatly reduce the odds of failure. Your statement regarding the ease of operation for "the inexperienced" is the chant of the poorly trained or misinformed. The shotgun isn't the most ideal setup for HD. A rifle can do anything a shotgun can do, and usually better.

Please elaborate on the pros of a SXS for HD as you seem to believe I am "rambling."

TDC

 

[made Man]

Follow up shots are limited to ONE

in 99.999% of cases that is all you would ever need. Hell, most of those crackheads would be high tailing it after seeing a double or even a single pointed in their faces.

You appear to have this fantasy of having a dozen of armed attackers going after you and having to clear all your rooms one by one while reloading numerous times.

Wake up, that #### does not happen.

 

[TDC]

in 99.999% of cases that is all you would ever need. Hell, most of those crackheads would be high tailing it after seeing a double or even a single pointed in their faces.

You appear to have this fantasy of having a dozen of armed attackers going after you and having to clear all your rooms one by one while reloading numerous times.

Wake up, that s**t does not happen.

Fantasy? You're the ill informed individual who believes "most of those crackheads would be high tailing it after seeing a double or even a single pointed in their faces". Get a grip, intimidation doesn't win a confrontation, action does. DO tell how many "crack heads" you've levelled a firearm at who immediately ran away? More importantly, how do you know the scumbag(s) in question are "crackheads" and not semi professional/experienced thieves or home invaders intent on doing you harm??

Don't bank on statistics, unless you wish to become one.

TDC

 

[Win/64]

The comparision between a double gun and a semi highlights the lack of knowledge by the poster. Semi auto shotguns are heavy, often ammo sensitive, less than 100% reliable and cost significantly more than a pump gun. The double gun, although cheaper, lighter, and arguably more reliable. Are not well suited for defensive work. Again, if you have the choice, a SXS isn't one.

TDC

Semi Auto's are heavy and Ammo sensitive? Maybe 20 years ago. Get with the times.... The quality Auto is as reliable and sometimes lighter than any Pump gun. You really don't know anything about Shotguns at all do you.
As far as a SxS only having 2 shots I don't think that is a liability at all. Being as "well trained" as you profess yourself to be, I don't think a "pro" like yourself would need more than 2 shots.

 

[TDC]

Semi Auto's are heavy and Ammo sensitive? Maybe 20 years ago. Get with the times.... The quality Auto is as reliable and sometimes lighter than any Pump gun. You really don't know anything about Shotguns at all do you.
As far as a SxS only having 2 shots I don't think that is a liability at all. Being as "well trained" as you profess yourself to be, I don't think a "pro" like yourself would need more than 2 shots.

Again, your lack of training shines through. Banking your survival on being able to make first round hits that are effective in neutralizing the threat is pure fantasy. Add to that "perfect" scenario the very real possibility of multiple attackers and you might begin to understand the advantage of more rounds on hand. Of course, you've provided pure fact or evidence to support your claim or disupute mine.

TDC

 

[made Man]

Fantasy? You're the ill informed individual who believes "most of those crackheads would be high tailing it after seeing a double or even a single pointed in their faces". Get a grip, intimidation doesn't win a confrontation, action does. DO tell how many "crack heads" you've levelled a firearm at who immediately ran away? More importantly, how do you know the scumbag(s) in question are "crackheads" and not semi professional/experienced thieves or home invaders intent on doing you harm??

Don't bank on statistics, unless you wish to become one.

TDC

how many have you?

also, you might have dozen attackers, but no one wants to be the 2 to die.

that #### has mall ninja written all over it. Taking down SWAT trained kamikaze crackheads day and night.

 

[Win/64]

Again, your lack of training shines through. Banking your survival on being able to make first round hits that are effective in neutralizing the threat is pure fantasy. Add to that "perfect" scenario the very real possibility of multiple attackers and you might begin to understand the advantage of more rounds on hand. Of course, you've provided pure fact or evidence to support your claim or disupute mine.

TDC

Quote "Of course, you've provided pure fact or evidence to support your claim or dispute mine".
More ramblings.... What does that even mean? And what do you mean by "multiple attackers"?
Are you expecting the "A-Team" or do you really believe in Zombies,or are you a crack dealer?
You have proven in your above posts you know nothing about Shotguns. So why should we take you seriously when you talk about personal defence?

 

[pharaoh2]

Let me see, if a double is suitable for these things:

I think I'd be willing to take my chances with it on these things:

One follow up shot is a liability? How about when standing your ground against a charging bull elephant? Last time I checked they don't build pump action rifles built around stopping cartridges. But why, if the double is inferior and the pump is superior? Ever have a pump jam? I have. So all of a sudden your 7 follow up shots are gone. Now what? It doesn't take much to jam a pump either. A little piece of crap gets jammed up in the follower and the rim catch gets stuck, you open the pump and boom, you have two shells on your follower. Ever have a double jam? Again I have. Not jam, but an inferior quality gun failed to reset. How do you clear the pump? You have to get in there and ram the rounds up front into the mag tube, pull out the debris, drop your round back into the action and slam it shut. How do you clear the double? Put in a new shell. And had I been using a quality gun, it never would have happened to begin with. But the jam could happen to any pump. More moving parts means more chances to fail.

 

[TDC]

Quote "Of course, you've provided pure fact or evidence to support your claim or dispute mine".
More ramblings.... What does that even mean? And what do you mean by "multiple attackers"?
Are you expecting the "A-Team" or do you really believe in Zombies,or are you a crack dealer?
You have proven in your above posts you know nothing about Shotguns. So why should we take you seriously when you talk about personal defence?

You honestly believe that criminals operate alone? Do you believe there is a zero chance that multiple assailants might be present? Do you believe that one or two rounds of any load will guarantee incapacitation of all possible threats? Please, as I am so lacking in knowledge, do educate me on the absolutes in defensive firearms and tactics.

To "dumb down" my quote from your previous post. Please support your claim that I A) know nothing about shotguns and B) how my information is flawed or incorrect.

TDC

 

[B]

What a stupid idea.

 

[TDC]

One follow up shot is a liability? How about when standing your ground against a charging bull elephant? Last time I checked they don't build pump action rifles built around stopping cartridges. But why, if the double is inferior and the pump is superior? Ever have a pump jam? I have. So all of a sudden your 7 follow up shots are gone. Now what? It doesn't take much to jam a pump either. A little piece of crap gets jammed up in the follower and the rim catch gets stuck, you open the pump and boom, you have two shells on your follower. Ever have a double jam? Again I have. Not jam, but an inferior quality gun failed to reset. How do you clear the pump? You have to get in there and ram the rounds up front into the mag tube, pull out the debris, drop your round back into the action and slam it shut. How do you clear the double? Put in a new shell. And had I been using a quality gun, it never would have happened to begin with. But the jam could happen to any pump. More moving parts means more chances to fail.

For starters, the elephant doesn't actively seek/stalk its prey, as it is a herbivore. Second, Elephants are distinctly lacking in their ability to operate tools such as knives, bats, and firearms. Third, as I mentioned before, when hunting dangerous game you are engaging them on your terms for the most part. Tell me, when hunting dangerous game, are you the only one with a rifle at the ready or is there atleast one other person, namely the guide who is also armed? As with any lethal engagement with firearms, shot placement is key to success.

Firearms don't "jam" they incur "failures", "stoppages" or "malfunctions". Jam is a substance spread on toast. The double feed you describe in a shotgun occurs when the shell hooks are worn or broken. Proper maintenance prevents such events. In any case, your description of the remedial action is wrong. The double feed can be cleared by executing the "mortar" or combat clear. Clearing the double is inherently easier thanks to the lack of a magazine. You mention that with a quality double "it never would have happened to begin with". You make the bold and ingorant statement that a quality firearm is impervious to failure while in the same breathe believe that a quality pump gun would continue to be unreliable, a double standard with zero logic to support it.

I do agree that more moving parts by proxy means an increased risk of failure. That being said, sacrificing the advantages often associated with more complex systems is counter productive. If simple really was the key, why aren't we still using swords and clubs?

I can assure you a pump gun will deliver more rounds on target in a shorter period of time than any double gun out there. Ease of use and reliability are important factors. Practicality for the role at hand is paramount.

TDC