stopping power of a caliber and terminal effect of a bullet

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medvedqc

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was wondering what is your experience on stopping power with caliber and of course specific bullet.

so far i ve seen 460 wea with 510 or 500 grains solid and expandable on western savannah buffalo, lion and dwarf forest buffalo.
300 savage 180 grains core lockt on black bear.
35 whelen on our bison.

failures are more interesing:

6 shots on our bison with 375 hh and 260 grains nosler accubond.
3 shots of the same kind on another bison but this time a 9.3x62 320 grains rn woodleigh stopped it.

let s open the discussion
 
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I have stopped two motivated bison in their tracks with a 280 Remington shooting 140 TSX’s and a 7MM Mashburn and the 145 LRX. Lights out now. I have also been charged by three Grizzlies. Luckily no one including the bears received a scratch. One pulled up inside 10 yards. Neither time did the cartridge I was packing enter my mind. My ability to shoot straight went through it, what felt like, a million times. Every time I had someone with me and keeping them away from my muzzle was also sharply present.
 
medvedqc said:
was wondering what is your experience on stopping power with caliber and of course specific bullet.

so far i ve seen 460 wea with 510 or 500 grains solid and expandable on western savannah buffalo, lion and dwarf forest buffalo.
300 savage 180 grains core lockt on black bear.
35 whelen on our bison.

failures are more interesing:

6 shots on our bison with 375 hh and 260 grains nosler accubond.
3 shots of the same kind on another bison but this time a 9.3x62 320 grains rn woodleigh stopped it.

let s open the discussion
Click to expand...

I find in the case of the likes of the .300 Savage (and .308 Winchester) and .35 Whelen, they are generally very effective since the bullets they fire are usually designed for a slightly hotter round. If you're loading 180's into a .300 Savage or .308 Winchester, they are probably also designed to be used with a .30-06 or .300. 225's and 250's in the Whelen are also intended to be used in the STA and Norma Magnum. So slamming one into game at super close range doesn't result in the bullet coming apart - instead they work just fine, as intended. Sure, they don't shoot as flat, but that's not a huge deal to me. Most other moderate velocity rounds are similar - looks at 9.3x62, some of the best bullets would pair well with a x64 but in a x62 they perform fine, no drama, and helps support the "legend" of the 9.3x62 as an effective game taker.

There is a point with high velocity cartridges that the use of premium bullets is required - I shot a deer about, jeez, 20 years ago now? Yikes, anyways, I used a Weatherby 100gr factory load in my .257 Weatherby Magnum and the bullet basically disintegrated on impact. Range was maybe 80 yards, so the impact velocity would have been what, 3400 fps, maybe higher. The entry looked like someone had taped a firecracker to the poor deer, huge surface wound, but not deep, not even into the vitals. Head shot followed immediately to finish the job. Since then I've used Partitions and been pretty happy with them even on close range impacts, the back half always punches through and the effect is nearly always instantaneous.

But I find as I become an old fart, more and more I prefer heavy-for-caliber bullets instead of loading middleweight stuff. Give me 150's in a .270, 160's in a 7mm, 180's in a .30-cal, etc and if the trajectory is a problem I'll just get off my lazy ass and walk closer or pass on the shot.
 
medvedqc said:
was wondering what is your experience on stopping power with caliber and of course specific bullet.

so far i ve seen 460 wea with 510 or 500 grains solid and expandable on western savannah buffalo, lion and dwarf forest buffalo.
300 savage 180 grains core lockt on black bear.
35 whelen on our bison.

failures are more interesing:

6 shots on our bison with 375 hh and 260 grains nosler accubond.
3 shots of the same kind on another bison but this time a 9.3x62 320 grains rn woodleigh stopped it.

let s open the discussion
Click to expand...

I believe that a lot of times "failures" aren't the fault of cartridge/bullet choice, but rather the placement of the shots.
What's the old native saying, "One shot, dead bull. 2 shots, maybe dead. 3 shots, bull gone"...
Btw, the most impressive knock down one shot kill I witnessed was a frontal shot on a large bull elk from a 45-70.
 
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when you say stopping power I hesitate to post my experiences but out of all the calibers I have killed game with inside 100 yards , I still see the .303 brit as the one that gets the job done with no fuss.
I generally take and wait for clean heart/lung shots and I always use .180gr federal powershok. Bang ....dead. A couple or so young bull moose as well although one I took a neck/spine shot and it dropped like a bag of hammers. I have often found bullets on the offside, just resting against the hide, fully mushroomed with no exit wound . This tells me that the bullet dumped all it's energy into that animal ..... my experience with stopping power anyways.
Knocked a few deer and a cow elk off thier feet with my 7mm and the rifles likes the 160....165(?) Nosler accubond or partition
I'm recoil sensitive due to my spine condition so haven't used any real stopping rifles like those folks carry in africa or when we could hunt grizzlies.
 
I suspect we have to distinguish between a "killing" shot and a "stopping" shot?? I have seen on a number of deer - hit just once (a "killing" shot), but ran tens of yards and smashed into tree or whatever - had to be running blind and "dead on the hoof" - but was not stopped. That is a 200 pound or less deer. I imagine same phenomenon occurs on much, much heavier animals. So on the ever popular Internet topic of animal "charges", I suspect it is more important to "stop" it - that is, make it fall down, rather than to just "kill" it - which might take 5 or 10 seconds. So, likely the difference between a CNS hit, and a "heart" hit. I do not know the physiology - but I suspect once filled with adrenaline, probably does not need a heart or lungs to function for a few seconds - typically those are seconds that the object of attention might not be able to afford??

But I would certainly be interested to hear experiences one way or another on this. OP, your opening post - 6 rounds into a bison - clearly not "stopped" with the first couple hits; similarly three rounds into another and not "stopped" - to what do you attribute that?? Bullet placement?? What the final bullet got into and "wrecked" - what do you think happened??
 
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Potashminer said:
I suspect we have to distinguish between a "killing" shot and a "stopping" shot?? I have seen on a number of deer - hit just once (a "killing" shot), but ran tens of yards and smashed into tree or whatever - had to be running blind and "dead on the hoof" - but was not stopped. That is a 200 pound or less deer. I imagine same phenomenon occurs on much, much heavier animals. So on the ever popular Interest topic of animal "charges", I suspect it is more important to "stop" it - that is, make it fall down, rather than to just "kill" it - which might take 5 or 10 seconds. So, likely the difference between a CNS hit, and a "heart" hit. I do not know the physiology - but I suspect once filled with adrenaline, probably does not need a heart or lungs to function for a few seconds - typically those are seconds that the object of attention might not be able to afford??

But I would certainly be interested to hear experiences one way or another on this. OP, your opening post - 6 rounds into a bison - clearly not "stopped" with the first couple hits; similarly three rounds into another and not "stopped" - to what do you attribute that?? Bullet placement?? What the final bullet got into and "wrecked" - what do you think happened??
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bison: lungs and hearts are little forward that most of the game we know. and i do think the 260 grains accubond are really on the soft side.
the grandson of john nosler was in the yukon few years and seems some listen to him a little too much ...

i ve seen a roe deer so on the little side hit by a 9.3x74r and gut in the air that run over 400 meters before dying so no stopping power with a wrong shot position.
 
Whether it was a 22 short or a 375 Ruger or anything in between, the fastest kills/drop to the ground DRT were brain shots followed by frontal shots.
 
Memorable stalked unaware Bull Elk 1 shot double-lunged DRT 35 Whelen 250gr X ~2300 fps impact. Similar situation longer range same result 416RM 300gr TSX ~2700 fps impact. Bull Elk called in 45-70 Ruger No.1 300gr TSX ~2300 fps impact 1 shot DRT.

https://i.imgur.com/iZcMvZE.jpg
 
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The heavy large calibre is for penetrating skull or breaking bone on the way to vitals. Placement is critical. The optimum speed ( I found) is 2,200 FPS at muzzle and a flat meplat. Those penetrate and get to the vitals. Taylor's Knock Down Power makes sense.
 
I wish I had the experience of dangerous game. I don't wish for it, but if I had the experience of two legged game... but the most dangerous I've hunted is moose. As has been repeated again and again in and outside this thread ("stopping immediately" and "killing" shots) all depends on a bullet with an adequate amount of energy reaching the correct region of the beast. Delivered both types but typically "killing" shots are desired. For comparison my first moose hunt I saw my own and two other guys shoot. #1 a 10y head shot frontal obviously was an immediate stopper. #2 a 180y first shot broadside... in the spinal cord in the hump: obviously not intended but I watched shooter struggling for steadiness on a stump that was too short and bull was aggressively after source of cow call. That was an immediate stopping shot but was not an immediate kill shot: without a follow up shot moose would have lingered for a couple days. #3 120y over a reasonably steady rest frontal shot, clipped lungs and heart: this obviously was a killing shot but the stop arrived a few seconds and few yards away when moose teetered and fell.

I see the intent of the discussion, but without an equalization of factors to report on the caliber and velocity of a bullet and their efficiency will unfairly get stuck on the back burner ruining the thread. The guy with a 243w loaded with 100gr interlocks who shoots well will have better results than the guy who is poor shot with his 700NE. Of course I saw a video of the guy who shot at a white tail doe with a 50bmg... intended head shot, didn't even touch her fur but close enough for the shockwave to kill her. That caveat aside this thread could become very interesting.

And in case anyone is curious (and because it's the general point of this thread) the three moose were shot using 270w, 308w and 30-06sprg respectively: the last of those three shooters spends the most time target shooting but in the circumstances that point was inconsequential as all three knew where to shoot and were adequately practiced to do it even if circumstances hindered one. Also the cartridge choices were not terribly different and all did the job... a butcher did the "autopsies" so we were unable to observe the resultant tissue and bone damage aside from what was visible field dressing so comparison of penetration/expansion are not known but clearly all three rounds are effective.
 
If I need to stop something I’ll use the gun I’m carrying. Hopefully it’s got one in the chamber. And I have time to aim. Or at least point it.
If it stops it does it become a stopping cartridge? Or is it good shooting??
 
Gonna go with a 'Hell no' to head shots...a fools errand at best.
Too many variables; small target that is moving / can move at anytime.
For folks who think they are better than they are.
Someone is bound to throw out the Harry Callahan line " A man has to realize his limitations..."... go ahead, no desire to see an animal run away with the remnants of it's jaw swinging from skin and sinew. A Dyck move IMO.
A fat .35 + caliber with good power and a Fat Meplat is the ticket for me...boiler room shot.
But do as you see fit...gonna anyhow, right?
 
Buckmastr said:
If I need to stop something I’ll use the gun I’m carrying. Hopefully it’s got one in the chamber. And I have time to aim. Or at least point it.
If it stops it does it become a stopping cartridge? Or is it good shooting??
Click to expand...

If it stops something, it stopped it. I am not sure that makes that one into something to be recommended as a "stopping rifle" for the specific people that need "stopping rifles". I think a "hunter" or "client" has a bit of choice whether or when to fire - whereas the "stopper guy" - the guide, often - has no choice - must be done right now. So I suspect different choices if you are "hunter" or if you are "stopper". Different roles, I think??
 
I think a charging animal needs to be stopped with a head or spine type shot. Into the body is better than nothing of course and definitely better then a miss. But with a head or spine shot needing to stop it, I don’t know if a large caliber is really that much more beneficial compared to good shooting with what’s in your hands plus a full dose of luck.
 
Shot placement is an obvious key aspect but the unexpected variable of the animal and what the bullet does after impact can be a complicating puzzle. I have anchored big animals on the spot with single shot, clean kills using small calibre bullets and have witnessed the same type of animals keep moving after multiple well placed shots from a heavy rifle.

I remember taking a particular animal, an average sized doe mulie with a perfect shot placement. Shattered the heart and lungs with a 150grain 270, soft point, but she ran, full speed, 800 to 900 metres before finally dropping, and yet I watched the same 150grain bullet anchor a huge lion. I love the light cartridges such as the 6mm Remington and the 270Winchester for performance on most game species but also greatly appreciate the benefits of the medium bores with slow and heavy bullets, specifically the 35Whelen and the 375H&H. The fast and light still kill, but the slow but heavy bullets always seem to anchor and kill very consistently.

Stopping power in a head-on charge though is all about the specific placement on the brain, brain stem, or spine. Even a frontal shot on the centre of the chest is not likely to stop an animal in its tracks.
 
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