i ve seen black bear and barren ground caribous taken by the 45/70 and 325 grains ftx factory reload and was impressed by the long shot of over 200 meters on one caribou of course was shot was enought. needless to say barren ground caribou doesnt need a canon but always nice to see the 45/70 reaching over 200 yards with no adjustement that is changing the caliber.
stopping power of a caliber and terminal effect of a bullet
- Thread starter medvedqc
- Start date
i ve seen black bear and barren ground caribous taken by the 45/70 and 325 grains ftx factory reload and was impressed by the long shot of over 200 meters on one caribou of course was shot was enought. needless to say barren ground caribou doesnt need a canon but always nice to see the 45/70 reaching over 200 yards with no adjustement that is changing the caliber.
Moose seem to be inure to bullet shock unless the spine or CNS is hit.
I have shot well over 50 of the big cervids, and in many, many cases, even
with perfect placement, ole swamp donkey will wiggle his ears, often standing
still, or possibly taking a step or two. At that point, it is not a bad practice to
whack him again, but frequently he will wait 20 seconds [which seems like an
hour to a neophyte] and then keel over.
I consider Moose, even very large bulls, to be easier to put on the ground than
are Elk. I have shot them with everything from the 6mm Remington up to and
including the 375 H&H magnum. Choose a reliable bullet, place it correctly, and
it is all over but the hard work.Dave.
Nothing much more to be said about moose reacting to even the best hits, and yet they go down instantly with CNS hits like everything else.
Main difference is the heart lung area is the size of two basketballs, as opposed the brain which is a bit bigger than a grapefruit, or the spine which is a bit smaller.
Ted
Johnn Peterson
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Chemainus B.C.
Nothing much more to be said about moose reacting to even the best hits, and yet they go down instantly with CNS hits like everything else.
Main difference is the heart lung area is the size of two basketballs, as opposed the brain which is a bit bigger than a grapefruit, or the spine which is a bit smaller.
Ted
True enough. I recall being out with Dad and the first Moose he took with his then new model 4000 light weight Husqvarna in 30-06. If I remember correctly, it was broadside just under 100 yds away. Dad put two quick ones in the chest and I'm sure it never even hardly flinched. Dad eased his rifle down so I asked if he wanted me to shoot. He replied, "no, he's dead but just doesn't know it yet". Sure enough, it walked about 10 yds and dropped.
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Brutus
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
And sir I strongly suspect you witnessed this from the Marlin platform or perhaps a modern single shot of considerable action strength.
And this is the detail I wished that huntfamily will bring to light versus a trapdoor. Modern or otherwise.
Just some further details.
Cheers
Having seen a bullet that fragmented into two pieces, I’m inclined to think bullet construction also matters, but I’m not an expert ... I just expect a mushroomed bullet to indicate a good transfer of energy.
Does one need a 6" thick concrete table to hold a glass of water????
There is a threshold of diminishing returns...does a 300wm kill a moose any better than a 7-08 with a broadside lung shot at 400yards?
I really think we tend to over think most of the time
There is a threshold of diminishing returns...does a 300wm kill a moose any better than a 7-08 with a broadside lung shot at 400yards?
I really think we tend to over think most of the time
Brutus
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
I have seen 150 grain 308 Win, Remington Core Lokt split into three pieces on deer. But seeing that it was struck broadside in heart lungs it hardly mattered even one little bit.
The usual 150 grain Winchester Silvertip was quite often found fully expanded and just under the opposite hide.
Both bullets killed almost equally fast in my estimation.
Slight edge with the Silvertip.
At the range the Core Lokt held slight accuracy edge.
nowarningshot
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
Moose seem to be inure to bullet shock unless the spine or CNS is hit.
I have shot well over 50 of the big cervids, and in many, many cases, even
with perfect placement, ole swamp donkey will wiggle his ears, often standing
still, or possibly taking a step or two. At that point, it is not a bad practice to
whack him again, but frequently he will wait 20 seconds [which seems like an
hour to a neophyte] and then keel over.
I consider Moose, even very large bulls, to be easier to put on the ground than
are Elk. I have shot them with everything from the 6mm Remington up to and
including the 375 H&H magnum. Choose a reliable bullet, place it correctly, and
it is all over but the hard work.
For Moose, this is my experience as.well. Suck up the energy and take a.few.steps. Then of.course fall down in the only swamp or difficult spot in sight. Its like their heart/lungs are overtaxed.......one good hit in the forward chest/heart and lungs, and their done. Never been charged .....by a bull.
Your talking about a bullet issue now not a cartridge issue. Bullet construction does matter, esp in larger game. I used 160gr NPs on a NFLD moose hunt last year in my 275Rigby. This cartridge is very similar to a 270. Good clean lung shot. Moose ran abut 50yds before dropping. Moose are not prone to drop at a lung shot no matter what the cartridge or bullet.
The 270 you mentioned was not the problem.
- Location
- Saskatchewan
Three things matter in discussion of "stopping rifles".
Where you shoot them
What bullet you shoot them with
What cartridge you shoot them with
I think I have the order correct, at least in my limited experience. Any discussion of how much "stopping power" a cartridge has would need to compare shots on very similar animals with very similar bullet placement.
Exactly what part of the anatomy that the bullet hits can determine the outcome, even when comparing quite different cartridges.
The bullet construction is next most critical - if a bullet explodes into tiny fragments in the surface muscles of a shoulder without adequate penetration, It is no help no matter how many foot pounds it delivers. Similarly, a round nose solid bullet is also of little immediate effect on a lung shot animal even if it penetrates completely and exits.
The cartridge simply needs to deliver a good bullet to the place it's properly aimed, and at an "adequate" speed. But not too much. Oddly, something far too many hunters don't understand is that a cartridge can be too fast to be effective - bullet blow up or deflection is a worse problem than an arched trajectory.
So I challenge the stopping rifle experts to consider one more thing that is often not discussed at all. A stopping rifle must fit the shooter so that it can be shot instinctively, without conscious thought, and very quickly. Like a fine bird gun. I think that's more important than cartridge, bullet, or anything else. Because a loud miss or a shot not taken because of a fumble is very ineffective at stopping game animals.
Where you shoot them
What bullet you shoot them with
What cartridge you shoot them with
I think I have the order correct, at least in my limited experience. Any discussion of how much "stopping power" a cartridge has would need to compare shots on very similar animals with very similar bullet placement.
Exactly what part of the anatomy that the bullet hits can determine the outcome, even when comparing quite different cartridges.
The bullet construction is next most critical - if a bullet explodes into tiny fragments in the surface muscles of a shoulder without adequate penetration, It is no help no matter how many foot pounds it delivers. Similarly, a round nose solid bullet is also of little immediate effect on a lung shot animal even if it penetrates completely and exits.
The cartridge simply needs to deliver a good bullet to the place it's properly aimed, and at an "adequate" speed. But not too much. Oddly, something far too many hunters don't understand is that a cartridge can be too fast to be effective - bullet blow up or deflection is a worse problem than an arched trajectory.
So I challenge the stopping rifle experts to consider one more thing that is often not discussed at all. A stopping rifle must fit the shooter so that it can be shot instinctively, without conscious thought, and very quickly. Like a fine bird gun. I think that's more important than cartridge, bullet, or anything else. Because a loud miss or a shot not taken because of a fumble is very ineffective at stopping game animals.
One exemple here the shot placement make more difference, I shoot mainly 30-06 180 gr mono, my brother in law should only a 300RUM with 180 gr bonded(I think) and the only difference in the end is the amount of meat wasted, both moose are dead just the same in the same amount of time but we loose way more meat on his moose than mines!!
I’m not sure how I wrote the original post, but I may have not been clear enough in how I wrote it. I was a witness to a fragmented bullet that had an inadequate stopping power and two shots were taken ... one shot from two different rifles. It’s not really possible to know which recovered bullet fragmented, but it’s reasonable to think it was the first shot which was a nosler bullet that fragmented and had a shallow wound since a second shot was needed. Admittedly, it could have been the other way around .. hard to tell with deformed bullets. This experience leads me to believe that bullet construction matters for a proper energy dump and I’ve seen better stopping power when a big mushroomed bullet was found. It’s nothing scientific .. just what I’ve seen in my limited experience.
The 270 was from a story related to me about a guy in the old man’s hunting group and his opinion on his former cartridge. Ive never shot a 270 ... influenced by my father, I always shot a 30 cal bullet of some kind and many people seem to like a bigger bullet.
Maybe stopping power needs to be defined? I’m assuming a CNS shot or heart shot of any caliber will stop an animal, so I’m thinking a lung shot or something like that is what we’d be considering for stopping power by caliber?
A good read is to be had in Nathan Foster’s various books and articles on many calibers and bullets especially at long range. He has killed probably thousands of animals and tracked the bullet damage. He has found that for larger game .30 cal and minimum of 165 grain bullet weight at over 2600 FPS starts to make a difference in killing power. I seem to remember the next step up is .35 cal. Then of course .458 cal with a heavy bullet at a good pace is another step up. Of course being comfortable with your rifle is most important. If you can’t hit the animal well, a .570 nitro express won’t help. And faster, smaller caliber magnum cartridges need better constructed bullets for short range. You can kill a moose with .243 Winchester with a good lung shot. It may go 100 yards but you will get it. Stopping power is a whole other thing though. You may not get an optimum shot off, so you want to get as many foot pounds of bullet energy into the animal as you can to stop it or slow it down. I haven’t had to stop a charging grizzly yet, but I would much rather have my .375 H&H over my 7mm rem mag if I did. And that is from seeing the different performance of both those cartridges on maybe 12 or so moose using 175 grain partitions in the 7 and 270 grain Hornady sp in the .375
hello brutus,
it was with the marlin 1895 but i do not recall which barrel it was on both cases. so a modern version.
i ve seen at the local range people using black powder version of hunting rifle with .45 or .50 hitting with not a problem the piglet at 300 meters and with no scope. i handled yesterday a modern black powder single shot carbine in .50 cal that was really handy ... of course just a side note.
i guided tv show where the guys used a black powder rifle with double charge in a modern action rifle because they had a muzzle loader season back home. with a good scope not an issue as well ...
i think there is a step up with a fast .458 if you can handle the recoil and have again a god shot placement and if the bullet can handle it.
YUP and SHOT Placement even More ! jmo RJ
