Stopping Rifles, .375 - .450 - .505 Gibbs

Silverado said:
And that right there shows how differently each shooter experiences recoil! My experience shooting a 9.3x74R with 286's from a combo gun left me feeling much like I had fired a 30-06 with 165's.

The math says that a 375 should recoil about twice as much as a 30-06, but it doesn't feel twice as stout to me.

I think there's something to be said about body size and recoil; I tower above adolescent hobbits at 5'6" and about 170lbs.
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I enjoy your humility and delivery!
 
dgradinaru said:
My 9.3x62 285GR bullet @ approx. 2450fts, is so much more comfortable. To me it feels like a 30-06. The 375 ruger is far from the 9.3 for recoil in my opinion.
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It's all about rifle weight. My x62 is well under 8lbs curb weight so off the bench it's a little lively but far from unmanageable. The H&H and Ruger are both very well mannered as well. Life is good in the medium bore class.
 
Ardent said:
Unfortuantely, the H&H is dead equal with the Ruger, so recoil is identical, the Barnes data for the 300gr solid is 2,735fps for the H&H over 76.5grs RL15 as well, top load for the .375 Ruger with the same bullet is actually a split hair slower than the H&H at 2,726fps. I'll agree classically the .375 H&H was down loaded to slightly lower specs and used archaic powders (and even cordite!) in years past, but today there isn't a lick of difference between the H&H and the Ruger. Both the H&H and Ruger can of course be comfortably downloaded and due to rifle weight, can feel like a .30-06 but deliver more on target.

The good news is, it gets much worse! Stickhunter's .505 is equivalent in recoil to firing three .375s simultaneously, from the same weight rifle (his .505 is actually lighter than my .375).
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Realguns.com shows data for the 375 ruger with a 300 gr bullet at approx just over 2800 fts. I understand that both the 375's are pretty much equivalent and game won't feel the difference.
 
The temperature of the day they are fired on is actually enough of a difference to put one ahead of the other, it's hard to find examples of two more closely matched cartridges. Barnes puts the H&H ahead by a hair's breadth in it's data, realguns puts the Ruger chili-fart velocity ahead. There isn't a shooter or game animal alive that could tell the difference between the two cartridges blindfolded. I'm leery to turn this into a classic CGN .375 vs .375, and I also like and appreciate the Ruger as a fantastic cartridge available in well priced rifles.

We'll have a recoil video edited together soon. Having fun here.
 
Thanks for another good thread Ardent! It's been a good thread so far and I can't wait for the video.
I did things a little different than most. I skipped the 375 and went straight for the 458wm. I did it because I already have a bunch of 45-70's and a pile of .458 bullets around to use. Now I'm having the 458 reamed to a Lott and looking for a nice 375H&H to have as its pair.
 
Ardent said:
Unfortuantely, the H&H is dead equal with the Ruger, so recoil is identical, the Barnes data for the 300gr solid is 2,735fps for the H&H over 76.5grs RL15 as well, top load for the .375 Ruger with the same bullet is actually a split hair slower than the H&H at 2,726fps. I'll agree classically the .375 H&H was down loaded to slightly lower specs and used archaic powders (and even cordite!) in years past, but today there isn't a lick of difference between the H&H and the Ruger. Both the H&H and Ruger can of course be comfortably downloaded and due to rifle weight, can feel like a .30-06 but deliver more on target.

The good news is, it gets much worse! Stickhunter's .505 is equivalent in recoil to firing three .375s simultaneously, from the same weight rifle (his .505 is actually lighter than my .375).
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Again I am linking an older article, but it is a good read nonetheless.
http://470mbogo.com/

Have a look at "Comparing the Big Bores" where, amongst other data, there is a chart about energy, recoil, recoil impulse etc.

One of my favourite quotes from that write up:
Touching off a 600-grain bullet at 2400 feet per second from a 10.5 lb. firearm makes you remember things you were supposed to do last week.
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The two bonafide charges I've been relayed, one with significant hospitalization involved, were stopped with .375H&H and .470 Nitro respectively. The .375 was on Cape Buffalo at a couple metres, brain shot, and the .470 was used to shoot a Lion that was on top of a fellow PH. The latter was in 2013 just before Boddington hunted Lion with the guys. In the end, bigger is better, but shot placement, in a hurry, above all else. The caliber of shooter dictates the caliber of rifle, and just as all rifles are not created equal neither are shooters. I'm not in that class, I can shoot this .505, .470 Nitro, and .450 Rigby, but I am no sharp hand at it yet. Guys like Dogleg, A-Zone, Boomer and BUM likely have thousands of rounds of heavy cartridges under their belt, and I admit a great deal of respect for the fellow who can shoot a .40+ like most shoot a .270. It's certainly a whole different class of specialization in shooting, with its own techniques and trade.
 
Ardent said:
The two bonafide charges I've been relayed, one with significant hospitalization involved, were stopped with .375H&H and .470 Nitro respectively. The .375 was on Cape Buffalo at a couple metres, brain shot, and the .470 was used to shoot a Lion that was on top of a fellow PH. The latter was in 2013 just before Boddington hunted Lion with the guys. In the end, bigger is better, but shot placement, in a hurry, above all else. The caliber of shooter dictates the caliber of rifle, and just as all rifles are not created equal neither are shooters. I'm not in that class, I can shoot this .505, .470 Nitro, and .450 Rigby, but I am no sharp hand at it yet. Guys like Dogleg, A-Zone, Boomer and BUM likely have thousands of rounds of heavy cartridges under their belt, and I admit a great deal of respect for the fellow who can shoot a .40+ like most shoot a .270. It's certainly a whole different class of specialization in shooting, with its own techniques and trade.
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Mark Sullivan relates an interesting story in regards to the shot placement necessary to break a charge. When he got his .600 NE, he was convinced a chest shot would stop a buffalo that was committed to killing him. Sure enough a client wounds a buffalo, and it comes, and Sullivan smokes it in the chest. Did it stop? It didn't even slow down, and just like with any of his other rifles, he had to hit the brain to ice it. Without the marksmanship skills that made him famous, some might say infamous, the Sullivan haters might have got their wish that day. Big rifles are a hoot, but given the fine shot that breaks a real charge, the 9.3 or .375 you can shoot trumps the .585 you can't.

I'm a little embarrassed to relate that the little .458 might have got the better of me. Loaded with 76 grs of H-335 under a 500, I got tagged by the scope. When I mounted the scope with that particular mount, I noted that the ocular was well behind the cocking piece, and I predicted that some day I'd shoot without the necessary caution, and get cut for my trouble; sure enuff . . .

So now I have a different mounting system, which places the ocular dead even with the cocking piece, and I will work towards regaining my edge with that M-70; I don't have a problem with my other kickers. I expect it could take some time, but I'm confident that I'll prevail; after all, the key to shooting big rifles well is simply the desire to do so. In the meantime, I do have a new CZ 527 in .223, just so as BUM knows I've covered all the bases.
 
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chuck nelson said:
Maybe because it has likely stopped more game than the others combined. Conjecture of course.
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The whole concept of a stopping rifle isn't about killing an incomer, simply because a bullet in the brain is a bullet in the brain no matter what caliber is used.

The purpose of the "stopping rifle" is to smoke something so goldarn hard that he might change his mind about killing you even with a non immediately fatal wound. That's why they call them "stoppers" and not killers or brainers. It's not a 100% thing, but what has long been considered the threshold has been over .40, over 2000 fps and over 400 grains. That works out to around 5000 foot-pounds. On the bullet side you're looking for a suitably constructed bullet of right around .300 SD.

Its more of an elephant thing, because as near as I can figure a buffalo goes down when the CNS is hit, he doesn't have anything left to stand up with or he feels like it.
 
Boomer said:
Mark Sullivan relates an interesting story in regards to the shot placement necessary to break a charge. When he got his .600 NE, he was convinced a chest shot would stop a buffalo that was committed to killing him. Sure enough a client wounds a buffalo, and it comes, and Sullivan smokes it in the chest. Did it stop? It didn't even slow down, and just like with any of his other rifles, he had to hit the brain to ice it. Without the marksmanship skills that made him famous, some might say infamous, the Sullivan haters might have got their wish that day. Big rifles are a hoot, but given the fine shot that breaks a real charge, the 9.3 or .375 you can shoot trumps the .585 you can't.

I'm a little embarrassed to relate that the little .458 might have got the better of me. Loaded with 76 grs of H-335 under a 500, I got tagged by the scope. When I mounted the scope with that particular mount, I noted that the ocular was well behind the cocking piece, and I predicted that some day I'd shoot without the necessary caution, and get cut for my trouble; sure enuff . . .

So now I have a different mounting system, which places the ocular dead even with the cocking piece, and I will work towards regaining my edge with that M-70; I don't have a problem with my other kickers. I expect it could take some time, but I'm confident that I'll prevail; after all, the key to shooting big rifles well is simply the desire to do so. In the meantime, I do have a new CZ 527 in .223, just so as BUM knows I've covered all the bases.
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Thanks for this Boomer. A man invariably catches up with his decisions!
 
Dogleg said:
The whole concept of a stopping rifle isn't about killing an incomer, simply because a bullet in the brain is a bullet in the brain no matter what caliber is used.

The purpose of the "stopping rifle" is to smoke something so goldarn hard that he might change his mind about killing you even with a non immediately fatal wound. That's why they call them "stoppers" and not killers or brainers. It's not a 100% thing, but what has long been considered the threshold has been over .40, over 2000 fps and over 400 grains. That works out to around 5000 foot-pounds. On the bullet side you're looking for a suitably constructed bullet of right around .300 SD.

Its more of an elephant thing, because as near as I can figure a buffalo goes down when the CNS is hit, he doesn't have anything left to stand up with or he feels like it.
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A few years ago there was a video circulating about a guide in Alaska turning a Brown Bear charge from about 8 yards. IIRC he was using a .404 Jeffery.
 
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