Strength of an antique Remington Rolling block

exseparatist

exseparatist

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Hi

I am looking for a second hand single shot in 45-70.

Often you see on the market an antique rolling block fitted with a new barrel.

Last summer I found this web site; http://dutchman.rebooty.com/RBfailure.html

OK, we do not know if these guys were total idiots that shoot anything but you could not ignore it.

Do someone had experience with such Remington ?

Thks

Ex
 
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20K psi for a M1867, 28K psi for a M1867-89, , which are the pressures of the ammo originally used in them.

I have both and have shot them at these pressures, but have not (and will not) proof tested them for higher pressures.

If you have one in 45/70, you can safely use "Trapdoor Springfield" loads in it.
 
do a google on the sweedish RB. it talks about the differant calibers
and how some actions have been reheat treated and refited with new
better material breach blocks and hamers. my bud has 4 of these and
u can see the diff plus they are stamped as being upgreded with an H
i believe.
jb
 
Guys in the USA are useing Trail boss loads in there 45 70 antiques like 12 to 14 grs depending on bullets, and no signs of excess presure but good accuracy.
Im gona try some Trail boss in my Antique 50 70 but start low working up watching primers ect.
 
jbunny said:
do a google on the sweedish RB. it talks about the differant calibers
and how some actions have been reheat treated and refited with new
better material breach blocks and hamers. my bud has 4 of these and
u can see the diff plus they are stamped as being upgreded with an H
i believe.
jb
Click to expand...

The breach blocks and hammers were, indeed, better material. The action body itself, however, wasn't heat treated steel. It was, and is, casehardened maleable iron.
 
I have shot many hundreds of shots through several rolling blocks and like them. The two in the link that you showed, were apparently loaded with ridiculous loads, the second one possibly with a 500 express shell. I think as long as you stick with black powder loads or moderate smokeless loads that are equivalent to black powder, you should be safe.

cheers mooncoon
 
The Swedes and Danes converted many of them to the 8x58R cartridge This is a powerful cartridge and the case has a lot of room for powder. It was first thought that the Swede rolling block actions would stand up to the same pressures at the Krags that were chamberd in the same cartridge. It was found to be a mistake and after a few Kabooms, they loaded a reduced pressure round just for the rolling blocks. Follow Andy's advice, those old actions and the new repros as well just aren't made for the pressures of modern cartridges. You wouldn't do it with a Krag or Trapdoor, why push it with the Swede rolling block?
 
jbunny said:
do a google on the sweedish RB. it talks about the differant calibers
and how some actions have been reheat treated and refited with new
better material breach blocks and hamers. my bud has 4 of these and
u can see the diff plus they are stamped as being upgreded with an H
i believe.
jb
Click to expand...

The H just means that it was made by Husquvarna, nothing more special than that.

The C marked actions are by Carl Gustav. Both made Rolling Blocks under license from Remington. The date under the marking, is the build date of the original action.

The markings that tell that the action has been upgraded are the date marks on the forward RH side of the breech area of the barrel. The dates are usually stamped into the wood as well. The other telltale is that the sliding style extractor has had it's screw hole filled. The internals are different on the upgraded actions, being new, the extractor has been replaced and the thumb lever on the block has a very distinctive shape, long rounded and smooth, rather than curved and checkered, as per the Remington design.


Cheers
Trev
 
dingus said:
Guys in the USA are useing Trail boss loads in there 45 70 antiques like 12 to 14 grs depending on bullets, and no signs of excess presure but good accuracy.
Im gona try some Trail boss in my Antique 50 70 but start low working up watching primers ect.[/QUO

Watching primers for pressure signs in old guns isn't a good practice. primers won't flaten out or show pressure signs untill well above 40k, well above the safe level of most old guns.
I found this out in person a few years ago while testing some loads for a Pedersoli Sharps action. I had loaded up 3 rounds using a "published formula" for 535 gr bullets. The recoil was absolutlly punishing on the first shot but never haveing shot anything larger than 400gr before I just shruged it of as being a wuss. The only deformation the primer showed was the firing pin dent. After the second shot I said that that was enough of that s**t.
I then set up the chrono. and fired the third shot--- It measured at 1765 fps., almost .458 balistics out of a Sharps action.
I didn't have anymore loaded rounds left to take apart to analize weather I had read the formula wrong or a printing error or made a mistake myself. The velocity of the load should have been around 1250 fps.

That gun should have come apart but thankfully it didn't (it still shoots exellent).
Again I reiterate that none of the primers showed any pressure signs at all.

Use a chrono.
Click to expand...
 
fingers284 said:
Watching primers for pressure signs in old guns isn't a good practice. primers won't flaten out or show pressure signs untill well above 40k, well above the safe level of most old guns.
I found this out in person a few years ago while testing some loads for a Pedersoli Sharps action. I had loaded up 3 rounds using a "published formula" for 535 gr bullets. The recoil was absolutlly punishing on the first shot but never haveing shot anything larger than 400gr before I just shruged it of as being a wuss. The only deformation the primer showed was the firing pin dent. After the second shot I said that that was enough of that s**t.
I then set up the chrono. and fired the third shot--- It measured at 1765 fps., almost .458 balistics out of a Sharps action.
I didn't have anymore loaded rounds left to take apart to analize weather I had read the formula wrong or a printing error or made a mistake myself. The velocity of the load should have been around 1250 fps.

That gun should have come apart but thankfully it didn't (it still shoots exellent).
Again I reiterate that none of the primers showed any pressure signs at all.

Use a chrono.
Click to expand...

Very good advice. Were you using a load with Reloder7 by any chance? I once used data for Hercules Reloder7 from the Lyman cast bullet handbook with the newer Allient Reloder7 (Alliant purchased Hercules a while back). I reached max velocity at the starting charge. There was no indication that anything was wrong other than excessive velocity.

That was out of my Marlin 1895. The trailboss data ought to be just in the rolling block, but be very aware that it gives lower velocities, but the pressure is actually quite a bit higher than you'd get with powders with a burn rate that suits the .45-70. Like SR-4759 for instance.

Chris.
 
That's right - "pressure signs" are notoriously inaccurate, and especially so at these low pressures. Using published load data for rounds that are similar in capacity and bore size, interpolating and extrapolating, and the consistent use of a chrony are your best bets.

In a Swedish M1867 Rolling Block in 50/70 (or 12.7X44R), there is quite a bit of load data out there, and it all points to MV's or 1300 fps or under for the 500gr, and 1350 fps or lower for the 450gr (my favourite), but only with the fastest suitable powders, which I have found to be H4198 and IMR3031. Go with faster powders like Unique and you need to drop by at least 100 fps, and with Trail Boss, I would drop another 100 fps to a max of about 1100 fps with the 450 gr. That having been said, my go-to powder for practically every antique I shoot is SR4759.
 
gunlaker said:
Very good advice. Were you using a load with Reloder7 by any chance? I once used data for Hercules Reloder7 from the Lyman cast bullet handbook with the newer Allient Reloder7 (Alliant purchased Hercules a while back). I reached max velocity at the starting charge. There was no indication that anything was wrong other than excessive velocity.

That was out of my Marlin 1895. The trailboss data ought to be just in the rolling block, but be very aware that it gives lower velocities, but the pressure is actually quite a bit higher than you'd get with powders with a burn rate that suits the .45-70. Like SR-4759 for instance.

Chris.
Click to expand...

I believe it was either 3031 or H4198. My reloading notes are at home, 200 km away.

I have switched to using SR 4759 exclusively in all smokeless loads for old calibers.
 
In a 1888 Springfield Ram rod rifle 45-70 -14 grns of Trail boss behind a 505grn cast bullet gives velocity around 975ftps. 15 grns is still 975 and 13.5 grns gives 935ftps.I use the 14 grns and get good accuracy.
With the 420grn cast bullet in my 45-70 I use 12.5 grns and get good accuracy.
I also use 14grns in my Springfield Navy roller 50-70 and get good accuracy.
 
griaguns said:
In a 1888 Springfield Ram rod rifle 45-70 -14 grns of Trail boss behind a 505grn cast bullet gives velocity around 975ftps. 15 grns is still 975 and 13.5 grns gives 935ftps.I use the 14 grns and get good accuracy.
With the 420grn cast bullet in my 45-70 I use 12.5 grns and get good accuracy.
I also use 14grns in my Springfield Navy roller 50-70 and get good accuracy.
Click to expand...

Thats nice Gria, first I have heard of someone else using this other than me. I am loading 15gr of TB behind a 350gr bullet and it works out to 500 like hot damn.....mind you it doesn't have that BP 'WHUMP' but it works :redface:

As to the Remington Rolling strength, did anyone else read that story about that teen in Norway a few years ago who was killed when his Granddad's old RB let go? I think the cause may have been different ammo or overloaded ammo (can't remember which)
 
the problem with blowups is that one can never be sure just what the cause was. Locally, I can think of a 30-06 that was difficult to open because the owner shot 8mm shells through it (thought they were 30-06). Kicked fairly hard and jammed on the third shot. Another involved a 308 in a 270 --- gun held together barely with massive damage. With antique guns there is often a tendency to try poking in shells until you find one that fits. If a 500 nitro express fits a 500 black powder express rifle, it must be safe to shoot is the logic

cheers mooncoon
 
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