Stripped a bolt... any tips on how to get this rail off?
- Thread starter rays2c
- Start date
So, there is a progression going on in the removing of a screw - from a normally-torqued machine screw with a good head on it, to a boogered up head on a screw that might be bottomed out or the wrong thread pitch.
All looks good? - select a perfectly fitting bit and begin to try to remove - while watching in good light to see if the head moves at all - if it resists, do not keep trying - get a pin punch that fits down the middle of the Allen, or Torx and rap it sharply to drive the threads of the machine screw down to loosen them from their mated surfaces.
For Phillips, use a sharper series of bit as a punch - we all have kits of extra bits from China to use - and if the top of the X is damaged, use a flat punch to squash the top down a little and then tap a crisp-edged bit of the proper size into it to re-forge the material into a proper functional X and try again to remove it while watching the head for movement. You can't drive an L-shapped Allen or Torx into a hole - so don't even try - use a straight bit.
For slot, it gets worse - some slots may have a tapered head that is weak - bit fitment is crazy important - and it is more difficult to punch the centre down to loosen the threads, because if we use a slot bit to punch with, it can punch the screw slot down into the metal beneath it and lock things up tight. I suppose that a guy could use a slot bit that is only as wide as the screw shank to drive the shank down High torquing on a slot can even bust a side of the head off - oh bother. If the meat at the top is damaged, use a flat punch and a hammer to put the metal back down and tap a perfect-sized bit into it and have another go at it.
On a completely boogered head, take the head off with a drill - it may overheat your drill bit(s) - Torx and Allen screws are often very hard stuff, and certainly will harden up and become impossible to drill if the bit gets hot.
If a hole just burns bits because it turned blue and hardened, the only bit that will work is a carbide bit - a masonry bit can be sharpened to cut with the leading edge ( for masonry work, they are sharpened differently).
One last thing - consider what will happen if a drill bit breaks while you are drilling with your handy-homy cordless drill with your patient on your knee - the best hole would be through your knee - but it will likely leave a Harry Potter scar down the side of your gun - quite regrettable - so find a way to limit the damage to things which can heal.
There might be a place for heat or screw extractors or drilling broken screws out..... but if you are real still, you can feel the cringe muscles tighten up - especially in old guys that have regrets.
All looks good? - select a perfectly fitting bit and begin to try to remove - while watching in good light to see if the head moves at all - if it resists, do not keep trying - get a pin punch that fits down the middle of the Allen, or Torx and rap it sharply to drive the threads of the machine screw down to loosen them from their mated surfaces.
For Phillips, use a sharper series of bit as a punch - we all have kits of extra bits from China to use - and if the top of the X is damaged, use a flat punch to squash the top down a little and then tap a crisp-edged bit of the proper size into it to re-forge the material into a proper functional X and try again to remove it while watching the head for movement. You can't drive an L-shapped Allen or Torx into a hole - so don't even try - use a straight bit.
For slot, it gets worse - some slots may have a tapered head that is weak - bit fitment is crazy important - and it is more difficult to punch the centre down to loosen the threads, because if we use a slot bit to punch with, it can punch the screw slot down into the metal beneath it and lock things up tight. I suppose that a guy could use a slot bit that is only as wide as the screw shank to drive the shank down High torquing on a slot can even bust a side of the head off - oh bother. If the meat at the top is damaged, use a flat punch and a hammer to put the metal back down and tap a perfect-sized bit into it and have another go at it.
On a completely boogered head, take the head off with a drill - it may overheat your drill bit(s) - Torx and Allen screws are often very hard stuff, and certainly will harden up and become impossible to drill if the bit gets hot.
If a hole just burns bits because it turned blue and hardened, the only bit that will work is a carbide bit - a masonry bit can be sharpened to cut with the leading edge ( for masonry work, they are sharpened differently).
One last thing - consider what will happen if a drill bit breaks while you are drilling with your handy-homy cordless drill with your patient on your knee - the best hole would be through your knee - but it will likely leave a Harry Potter scar down the side of your gun - quite regrettable - so find a way to limit the damage to things which can heal.
There might be a place for heat or screw extractors or drilling broken screws out..... but if you are real still, you can feel the cringe muscles tighten up - especially in old guys that have regrets.
Kayser Sose
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Southern Van Isle
On a bench. With a fresh bit and a dab of oil. Set up sturdily, so that the process goes off in a controlled fashion. Gentle drilling until the bolt head pops off, if youre careful youll stop st the exact moment. Lift off the rail and make so a flathead fits the remaining shank.
I mean
I mean
I worked in a machine shop, where one of my jobs and specialties was removing broken fasteners, so yeah, I know how a screw extractor works. I have also drilled out bolts and removed broken taps etc.
It is not even close to the best way.
THERE IS A PURPOSE BUILT TOOL TO DO THE JOB AND THAT TOOL IS CHEAP AND EASILY AVAILABLE.
Bodging a job IS NEVER THE BEST WAY ... EVER.
Really don't know how many times this needs to be said?
Someone who actually gets it and doesn't want the OP to destroy parts of his rifle. Thats a nice change from all the hacks posting here.
Good god, the chief narcissist calling others narcissists. Your total bodge way is the only way and nobody else knows better. Except the guy you insulted, who worked in a machine shop removing broken fasteners.
I fully respect your years of gunsmithing, but this is a bodge method, when there is a tool specifically designed to do the job. An inexpensive tool that is available pretty much everywhere.
Correct. They are also available at CDN tire and prob lots of other places. There is simply no excuse for bodging a job like this when the correct tool is cheap and widely available.
I told you the correct way and the correct tool and you discounted my advice and insulted me in the process. Remind me how long have you worked as a machinist?
One might suggest that silly bodge suggestions likely to damage a guy's gun are the problem here. Anyone who follows advice that includes the disclaimer that the offerer doesn't care about damaging parts of a firearm is a fool.
While it is unlikely to occur here, breaking a hardened tool off inside a hole is a BIG problem. I've had it happened a couple of times and it is not fun.
FatCatsDad
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
I've never seen a machinist or tool and die maker at work break a bit off.
You are obviously bodging the job with the wrong speeds, feed rates, lube or other mistakes.
FatCatsDad
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
No thanks, I'll listen to Guntech over someone that breaks off tools making things worse
- Location
- Nova Scotia
And I bet GT broken taps in holes before. As most gunsmith are licensed or educated machinists. Same as every mechanic had a bolt snap. Personally I had no luck with screw extractors.
What is your occupation again?
Then you've never stood in a machine shop for more then a week....
FatCatsDad
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Nova Scotia
That hole still big enough to hammer a bigger torx in it or grind a flat head.
Or remove the front screw and m lock nut and then use a punch and loosen the nut from under. Get it to turn to remove.
Or remove the front screw and m lock nut and then use a punch and loosen the nut from under. Get it to turn to remove.
I have had no success with screw extractors and size 6 screws. I have had success with left hand drills. I have had success by drilling into the screw head and popping it off, then removing the threaded stub. Often that stub removes with your thumb and finger once the tension has been removed. If it is Loctited in, file a slot in the top of it, then a lot of heat and a screw driver.
Broken taps in a blind hole are the worst... Burning them out with a small tip and acetylene increasing the oxygen as they glow red and blow out worked the best for me.
Screw extractors have served no purpose in 50 + years of gunsmithing for me.
Broken taps in a blind hole are the worst... Burning them out with a small tip and acetylene increasing the oxygen as they glow red and blow out worked the best for me.
Screw extractors have served no purpose in 50 + years of gunsmithing for me.
No kidding huh. Gotta love it when the ignorant narcissist tells the experienced guys how things work.
Hell, I used a screw extractor on a snapped 6mm screw two days ago. Worked like a charm. It's all about getting the hole centered and then deep enough to allow the extractor to grip.
Exactly. I started into machining, getting on to 20 years ago. Over any period of time, things gonna get broken and sh!t is gonna happen. But according to the man who hasn't actually run a machine, I don't know what I'm doing cause I broke a few things. LOL.
- Location
- Nova Scotia
I mean I'm only a back yard mechanic, that dabbed into some machining. Trying to drill straight and center with only a hand drill is a challenge. But I believe on this application there a bunch of stuff that could be done before breaking out the drill.
If it's a m loc fastener. You should be able to get under and turn the nut.
When it comes to broken screw extraction, often less is more. It is easy to make things worse with power tools.
FatCatsDad
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
6mm is a massive diameter compared to a 6-48, and your recommending an inexperienced person drill down the center of it , likely with a cordless drill and a drill kit that consists of 7 bits to choose from , deep enough to get an extractor to bite.
Not a realistic piece of advice.
Advice for the most part has to be geared towards average DIY types with limited tools.
Removing broken fasteners can be accomplished in many ways, doing it with minimal tools and tools on hand is what most are looking for.
I've even used a dremel to grind a horizontal slot through the rail and the fastener on order to get a slotted screwdriver on it.
It's destructive but works and the job is done in 15 min the same day including clean up.
I rarely like the bases that have been destroyed, usually cheap ass $10 weavers installed crazy tight like with blue loctite and somthing on the end of the Allen key for more leverage.
I find guns with nice rails, EGW, WARNE etc have generally been installed properly to 18 to 22 inch pounds
Jonnyofalltrades
Regular
- Location
- North-central Saskatchewan
Obviously we are all attached to our pet ways of doing things, thus all the vitriol.
There are many good ways of doing this. I'm not going to slam anyone for their pet method, please don't slam me.
I have drilled off the heads of screws before. It works very well.
My pet method is to take a small flat tipped punch and gently peen down the rim of the Allen head recess. Usually that displaces some metal back into the hole that will grab the Allen driver when you tap it back in (NOT bludgeoning or hacking. Or am I already a "hack" because I recommend the use of a hammer?)
Or, if a torx driver is a nice fit that can be carefully driven into the recess as well.
Since I started using those two methods I haven't had to drill a head off. I use these methods at least weekly, in my day job.
There are many good ways of doing this. I'm not going to slam anyone for their pet method, please don't slam me.
I have drilled off the heads of screws before. It works very well.
My pet method is to take a small flat tipped punch and gently peen down the rim of the Allen head recess. Usually that displaces some metal back into the hole that will grab the Allen driver when you tap it back in (NOT bludgeoning or hacking. Or am I already a "hack" because I recommend the use of a hammer?)
Or, if a torx driver is a nice fit that can be carefully driven into the recess as well.
Since I started using those two methods I haven't had to drill a head off. I use these methods at least weekly, in my day job.
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Screw extractors only work if the hole is deep enough to allow the extractor to get deep enough that the taper allows it to bite in to the screw. In a shallow hole, you pretty much have to sacrifice future use of the extractor, and grind the tip off as needed, and even then, with the limited grip length, you are likely gonna just ream the hole larger.
Simplest answer is to drill the head off the screw. Done carefully, the head will shear off and spin, preventing the drill from going any deeper, but anyone that has more IQ points than nostrils, should be capable of seeing what happens as the job progresses.
And for the extractor to work right, the first step is gonna be to drill it anyways....
I did a LOT of extractions, in my past life! Right on down to drilling out 2-56 size screws. I have actually used the 'jam a bigger key' method, more times than I liked, with good results. Torx bits are handy, as is having a selection of both inch and metric sized hex driver tips. Tap the tightest fitting one in, apply as much pressure as you can to keep the tip from camming out, and apply torque to remove. I used to use a 1/4 inch wrench on whatever insert I was using, as it reduced the strain and allowed easier movement.
Another method that doesn't wreck things, is to use dental burrs, or similar, in a Dremel style tool, and carve a bloody great slot across the head of the screw, to allow use of a standard slot screwdriver. Same deal, use a fair bit of force to apply pressure, use a wrench on the screwdriver handle or shaft, to apply torque under control.
Left hand drill bits are out there, too, if you have a drill press or mill that will run in reverse without too much trouble. Be aware that many keyless chucks are NOT really secure, applying any torque in reverse...
Lee Valley sells an extractor kit for small screws and bolts. Works amazing. I've used it for this exact thing more than once.just stripped one of the bolts on the magpul rails. any suggestions or tips on how to get it out?
cheers
